As oppose the Horde trying to create their new homes? The Horde was as imperialistic as anyone else when they initially wanted to make their new home.
The New Horde was seeking to make a new home for themselves on Kalimdor because A. Thrall received a message from Medivh to go to Kalimdor and B. the New Horde quite literally had no other alternative.
The Quilboar and Centaur, instead of trying diplomacy immediately assaulted with the express intent to kill every last one of them. Why would the Horde be the first ones to try diplomacy with a faction that seemingly do not have any interest in it?
(in fact a few Horde vanilla quest reference them wanting to take more areas from the Quillboar and have you kill them)
See this.
The Quilboar and Centaur, instead of trying diplomacy immediately assaulted with the express intent to kill every last one of them. Why would the Horde be the first ones to try diplomacy with a faction that seemingly do not have any interest in it?
Blackhand himself was just self defensing his way across the eastern kingdoms.
Canât forget Blackhandâs campaign of self defense against the Draenei on Draenor. Or Orgrimâs campaign of self defense against the Alliance of Lordaeron.
Clearly the Draenei didnât have an understanding of public infrastructure projects and took it personally when the orcs needed their bones for a highway.
Clearly the Draenei didnât have an understanding of public infrastructure projects and took it personally when the orcs needed their bones for a highway.
Agreed. You can make the same case for all the factions the orcs have fought whether as Old/Orcish/[pick evil Horde] or New Horde soldiers now that I think about it.
King Llane didnât have an understanding of what the Orcs wanted, the mere fact he didnât just bow his head and let Blackhand have free access to his lands means heâs an idiot.
The Council of Seven Nations didnât have an understanding of what Orgrim wanted, the mere fact they formed the Alliance of Lordaeron in response to Turalyonâs rallying cry means that theyâre idiots.
Varian and Anduin Wrynn both did not have an understanding of what Garrosh wanted to do. The fact they fought back means that theyâre idiots.
And if he won he would have been treated as a hero by the Horde. But he is dead, and so is the rest of the Horde megomaniacal leaders(in Sylvanas case she is like triple dead). Ultimately, what our wars have decided is who is left as the saying goes. And maybe that is it, like it or not the best case scenario for why the Alliance âwinâ. Our leaders are still alive and will be treated as heroes. And by extension the people they represent.
I think it was around that time - my other thought was of the Broken Front event where they wrote a bunch of orcs suicidally getting themselves and an Alliance unit killed by Scourge just because they wanted to kill the humans that badly, but that was in the same expac that had Garrosh start his âdeal with the omnicidal Scourge on our doorstep? But I want to kill humans instead!â obsessive faction antagonism narrative. And the same expac as the Wrathgate, which wasnât really the Horde, but in a way that didnât make much difference to the Alliance viewpoint.
Before that, I think the faction conflict was more balanced - or at least the conflicts where both factionsâ players knew about the events. Stuff like Bael Modan (and, similarly, the dwarves excavating in Mulgore) were one-sided, because itâs Horde questing in a Horde zone and that should be a straightforward heroic experience, while the Alliance player had no lore at all about what was going on there. But shared events, like the orc and night elf contention over Ashenvaleâs resources, was treated more like a conflict where each side has some decent arguments.
Though I donât have he best memory of Vanilla to be certain of that judgement - I never reached the endgame zones and I was young enough at the time that some nuance could easily have flown over my head or just be me filling in gaps between what I do remember.
Initially I think this was partially because Kalimdor was done 2nd and rushed like hell comparatively.
Ashenvale was an extension of WC3 but when Dwarven content is done and youâre lucky if you can put in 75% of the care into Kalimdor, why add quests referencing it blueside?
Take the Forsaken/Scarlet fighting. There were Alliance quests covering it and pointing out that the Alliance was backing them. But since the Nelves werenât really the instigator of anything in Vanilla, why make Dwarven or the Kul Tiran sins a focus for nelf quests? You could do something with nelves being worried about the backlash or being sympathetic to the Tauren, but classic quests were largely bear-butt collecting or sending you to talk to someone across the world.
Though I could be entirely talking out of my butt here, BFA was absolutely loaded with atrocities done by either faction that were 100% never referenced again on the other side. But that is after theyâd shuffled through most of the original devs so idk.
I felt it was more a case of just not bothering to make every questing area have dual-faction content - Like for another example, Iâm pretty sure the Alliance never had quests inside or directly referencing the Hillsbrad Fields, despite the Alliance already being in the zone and questing out of Southshore. Or the DorâDanil Barrow Dens in Ashenvale were only used for Alliance questing (as far as I recall) despite being right next to Splintertree Post and with a story involving the Forsaken nearby.
Iâd have to disagree here - unless this is actually about some quests in the Plaguelands that I neve got to. The original introduction to the SC dungeons was two recruiters trying to convince individual adventurers to join the crusade, with the last member saying that the SC was actually crazy and hostile to outsiders - if the Alliance was still backing them, itâs never explained how because the Scarlets attacked on sight. Thereâs no mention of Alliance backing, neither in troops or supplies or gold - just not throwing recruiters out of the city.
Really, I think there are more cases of these events being one-sided than two-sided, of making questing areas that were only relevant to one faction and not explaining them to the player of the side they nominally belonged to. I just prefer the zones/stories that are shown from two different angles.
Donât you tend to argue about how the orcs were clearly in the wrong for going into Ashenvale the first time to cut trees because even though they had no idea there was anyone there, it was sacred forest?
No, thats basically it. Like you said, they were using Stormwind and other places as a way to raise men and funds with the blessing of the Authorities. It wasnât until they bit the hand that fed that that the Alliance started caring.
But the fields were part of the zoneâs contested battlefield setting which they did have quests over.
Yes, and and I am not fond of what the Bael Modan did but I think they didnt deserve getting bombed to oblivion. Having said that one can argue that Grom was defending himself as some of you keep saying. The same could probably be said of Bael. Bael modan is gone is now and the stonespire a scattered tribe that doesnt seem interested in the mountain. This is a moot point for years now.
The night elves are very much still interested in Ashenvale and the Horde should have left the place a long time ago. Especially considering both factions will probably be killing for it for who knows how many more years.
Sounds like the Horde and Ashenvale(they were told it was sacred but refuse to leave). So now we end with a situation where the taurens who want the mountain and the dwarves who all wanted the mountain are all dead.
Now I wonder what happens to Ashenvale? I guess we can both keep killing for it and maybe the Horde will get the upper hand again but I suspect we will simply repeat BfA and MoP again and the Horde will keep getting beaten back at the end. Or the Horde can peacefully leave and Warcraft ends that particular chapter on a bloodless note.
We are a month away from Chronicles 4. Lets see who gets painted as the villains and heroes of that telling.
And the Horde was started everything in their sight. Chronicles actually paints in that Tyrande was quite willing/Hoping they would just be passing by/getting some resources. Instead they were destroying the entire thing.
And while mining can certainly cause some destruction. The dwarves werent exactly planning on destroying an entire mountain.
And neither will anyone else and this cycle will continue again and again.
Heck, up to now people continue to believe Jaina/Theramore was neutral even after everything I have shown people that they were always loyal to the Alliance and their actions were in an attempt to help the night elves against Garrosh.
Right now all I can hope for is some clarity from Chronicles 4 and maybe we can end some of it.