The Shaman frost shock will never defeat my bubble hearth!
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The only statistics I’ve seen recently put the Alliance at 53% and the Horde at 47%.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
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And every time that statistic is brought up you know just as well as I do on why it is faulty.
But keep ignoring them.
I have personnally seen you being replied to on those faulty numbers.
However by all means continue your misinformation campaign.
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So I exagerated, but looking at the stats from 2011, the Alliance doubled the Horde. So we have still seen a massive drop in Alliance players since then, and Blizzard has stopped reporting subscription count, so we don’t even know how accurate the current data is. Top 5 pvp guilds are all Horde. 4 out of the 5 top pvp players are Horde. 4 out of the top 5 pvp races are Horde. 3 out of the top 5 PvE races and players are Horde.
Forced Dwarves who didn’t want to fight to fight. Sentenced Kael’Thas to death for accepting help to defend himself. Was a racist piece of garbage. Talk to some blood elves, i bet they have a stronger opinion on it than you or I.
In general I agree with you there, but its portrayed in game as if it was awful, so lore-wise, Arthas is bad for that.
Also, he was still a member of the alliance when he was burning boats, betraying mercenaries, slaughtering allies, and claiming cursed swords.
I also forgot to mention that the alliance of lordaeron still had orcs in prison camps at the beginning of the game. Thrall was raiding them and getting people out in the tutorial, if i remember correctly.
Point being, humans weren’t really portrayed in the best light during WCIII, as you seem to think they were.
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A lot of this has to do with racials and min-maxing, not the story. Point blank: the horde toons have an advantage with useful racial abilities when it comes to raiding and pvp.
If you need an example of the lengths world best guilds will go to to get an advantage over others, take a look at the horde guild that faction changed specifically for the 400 ilvl gear alliance got last week for the quest “against all odds.” And that’s just one example
When and how?
Allying with the Naga, an enemy that is arguably just as bad as the scourge.
Sure. But that alone doesn’t make one evil.
It depends if you believe the ends justify the means. Had Frostmourn not of been cursed the way it was, then Arthas would be a hero.
What else would they do with them? They can’t send them home, and the Orcs were still raiding and pillaging the country side.
They weren’t portrayed as being evil either.
I would argue that they were portrayed as being flawed. The same as the horde. If I got any over-arching message from that game, it was that the horde as it was then-constructed was no worse than the alliance.
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Burning countless innocent people live, being the enemy of life and destroyer of hope is a little bit more than “flawed”
In Warcraft 3, Grom attacked the Alliance and the Night Elves unprovoked. When defeat seemed certain, he drank the demon blood. In a conflict that he started and didn’t need to continue. He even revealed that he drank the demon blood willingly the first time. That the orcs weren’t tricked to being servants of the Burning Legion, but they willingly handed themselves over to slavery in exchange for power. That is not comparable to anything the Alliance had done in WC3.
That sounds like a Grom problem, and one that he atoned for before he died. You’re complaining about a dude that paid for his mistakes. Thrall then began the process of healing the wounds the horde had inflicted. The horde you’re blaming for that is Grom’s horde. Thralls horde was much different.
True, he made some dumb moves during WoW with Garrosh, but we were all friends after Archimonde died on Hyjal. Garrosh abandoning all that Thrall and Jaina had built was the focus of 2 and a half expansions…
So yeah, at this point, agree to disagree.
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…. How? He killed Mannoroth. The Night Elves were still down a demigod, and the humans are minus what might be hundreds of refugees…
By battling over Alterac, deforesting Ashenvale, and invading Arathi? By allowing the practice of Slavery to continue in the Horde? By Hireing Rexxar to slaughter the native inhabitance of Durotar to make room for his City, which he named after a war Criminal?
My point was every horde zone is invaded by the alliance. Example; duration, northern southern barrens, mulgore. Same with eastern kingdom zones all have allaince conflict.
Same is not true for allaince zones.
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Well, you answered your own question. He killed mannoroth. I think we can agree the world is better off without him.
Well you yourself said the orcs couldn’t go back to outland. Where did you think they’d go, detroit? I’d say after being put in concentration camps, they deserved a little land.
Had you been there before this expansion? Thats a big forest. There’s enough wood there that the elves don’t need all of it.
Arathi was a no-mans land for a long time. No one really claimed it, so the horde moved in. Also, strictly speaking, aren’t we fighting for resources in AB, not land?
The alliance was enslaving freaking pandaren. Any point you can make about the horde doing it is moot since we were doing it as of MoP.
Orgrim Doomhammer was many things, but he fought with honor. I would not call him a war criminal. And again, where were the orcs supposed to go, detroit? They took Orgrimmar by right of conquest. Something the alliance did to establish their holds on their lands too. So again… moot points, all.
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Settling has been done by every race. Why are just pointing at the orcs? Every race in wow settled and pushed the natives out or reduced their number…
This is also similar to human history. We settle which effects our native environment and it native people that lived there.
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That does not redeem him for the crimes he has done. As I said, the Night Elves are still down a Demi God and the Humans are down several refugees.
No they don’t. They came to Azeroth as conquerors, and since then, they have not stopped slaughtering humans.
That’s not the point. They have no right to it. It is sacred to the Night Elves.
No, it is the cradle of human civilization. Stromgarde still stood.
Where do you think resources come from?
Alliance never enslaved Pandaren. The Horde has kept slaves since it’s founding, despite Thrall claiming he shall not let his people even again live in chains.
He raped and pillaged his way from Stormwind to Lordaeron….
So, what the Europeans did to the indigenous people of the Americas is alright then? Noted…
Are they though? I don’t think the canon can agree that he’s really dead, as of legion
Their ancestors did. are any of the orcs that came through the portal even really alive? Also, I sit here, in New York state, as the ancestor of puritan immigrants. Should I be deported because my ancestors weren’t native americans, or is that not my fault. An interesting ethical question.
they have every right if the elves can’t keep them out. Conquest seems to be a thing in this world still
yeah, the city did. Full of ogres and bandits, as of the beginning of WoW, cradle of humanity or not…
i mean that battle is still raging. No one owns AB. Are BG’s other than AV even canon at this point?
Go quest through the Jade forest as a member of the horde.
Yup. Conquest happens in warcraft. And if Zaltaan was a human paladin during warcraft 1 and 2, he would have fought to stop it. Right of conquest is a thing in this world. For the 3rd time.
I know I didn’t make the point you’re arguing against here, but no, that wasn’t right. He’s pointing out that no race in this world we play make-believe in is innocent of conquest. And “fleeing your planet that was destroyed by the burning legion” is a decent excuse. Yes yes, I know, Grom drank the blood willingly. You’ve already made that point. But thats one orc. Just like kel’thuzad and Arthas are each one human. Point being… both races are flawed, as I’ve said from the beginning.
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Maybe I’m naive, have a dumb opinion or am just plain stupid but dammit if I still don’t feel that spark of pride when I get a shining moment for the alliance or a lok’tar for the horde. When either embodies what I loved about them from the start.
I love this story. Bad and dumb as it can be, with poor narrative choices all around, but I love it and want it to be better.
Isn’t that why we’re still here?
What are you talking about?
Of course there are.
Ever heard of a guy called Saurfang?
Dude this whole Warcraft story has happened in the past 20+ or 30 years before wow started.
It hasnt been that long.
In the context of WC3, yes. And a bunch of Night Elves were killed because of Grom’s war mongering.
At the time of WC3, orcs were still raiding and pillaging human settlements. It would have been simpler to just kill them all, but the Alliance have always been the good guys.
Conquest does not give you the right, just like I do not have the right to take what you own with threat of violence. That’s something you learn in preschool. Maybe take a refresher course.
And Stromgarde soldiers and nobility.
We are talking about Thrall here. Thrall’s Horde is said to be peaceful. But we waged war with the Alliance and allowed the practice of Slavery and genocided the natives of Durotar.
Conquest is not morally right. And raping and pillaging towns makes one a war criminal.
Conquest is not a right.
Thrall is the only living leader to have actively participated in that act. Everyone else are simply the products of their ancestors. So the Orcs do carry blame, while the rest of the world does not.
No it is not… it was every orc. The Warsong just happened to drink twice.