Telling players they can bring whatever spec they want into raids

[Ogimirak-medivh]

While this last part is true, it really is up to the group and how big that gap is, it is something that’d have to be judge on a individual basis, if they’re really good at it and the have good/decent gear then it’s up to the raid leader who is taking the time to organize can decide if they fit or not. so it’s hard to argue for dismissing someone out of hand because their spec isn’t the best option.

Boss health / encounter length / # dps’ers times a buffer, maybe 1.5.

That’s what each of your dps’ers should meet, regardless of their class or spec or gear or consumeables.

While it might read as harsh, if you’re setting this as a minimum DPS then the threshold for usable specs is so low that you could play as anything. You’re basically saying, “no afk’s during boss fights”.

Yes, I expect it to be an easy hurdle to overcome, at least for Tier 1. But the point is to create a concrete and fair expectation for dps so that, if a moonkin fails to beat it, it’s not because we hate moonkins.

[Fynìx-sargeras]

wannabe elitist alert

[Ogimirak-medivh]

As long as you have a decent number of real dps specs and everybody is buffed up, I really don’t see the problem with taking a few oddballs.

You’ve never ran a raiding guild, then. The problem with carrying a few oddballs is not that you don’t clear raids, but that you are showing favoritism to non-performers. That can cause real problems for guild chemistry.

[anon26013520]

You bet your butt that I am not running a guild. I’m here to have fun, not throttle somebody.

[Ogimirak-medivh]

If your concern is “efficiency” or “time”, and not “is it fun”, you’ve turned WoW into a job, and not a game.

Wiping constantly on a raid boss is not fun

[Kaylar-silver-hand (Kaylar)]

Please tell me how any of this applies to a dps spec such as Balance Druid or Elemental Shaman being unable to sustain themselves mana wise over the course of a raid encounter due to not having the proper mechanics or itemization readily available to do so?

I already did. You know, when I said

The farther you get from Meta, the smaller your pool of potential raid groups become

The problem here is you can’t seem to imagine a group of people who have enough fun together that they don’t care if they have to carry some of their friends or if their raid comp holds them back because they really like hanging with each other and that’s the entire reason they’re raiding together. Not everyone cares about progression. Some people are just happy hanging with their friends and are glad their friends are having fun. I know it’s crazy talk, but some people value that above loot or pushing tiers.

[Carceri-emerald-dream]

Some people are just happy hanging with their friends and are glad their friends are having fun. I know it’s crazy talk, but some people value that above loot or pushing tiers.

That sounds more like a group who would be doing 5mans rather than anything of raid level.

Classic WoW Raiding is not Dwarf Fortress.

[Prufinnor-wyrmrest-accord]

So is anyone going to actually argue the mana issues hybrid classes had trying to dps which held them back in raids or just keep assuming I’m a min/max elitist?

What are your thoughts on aggro and threat management by 1.12?
Your answer will be telling.

[Gangsta-maiev]

people ignoring the fact that everything from vanilla has been done a billion times and any player that has done the content can pretty much do the content on any class/spec combo they are familiar with thats decently geared. nothing in vanilla wow was exceptionally difficult except c’thun and then naxx, which wont be out for a long time, and even then, there will be raids with off specs doing the content just fine.

when wow was released in china, the players used all the knowledge accumulated by western players to fly through the raid content wearing a mish mash of lvl 40-60 greens and blues. wow vanilla raiding is not hard core. it has nothing on modern day mythic raiding. molten core will be cleared by some guilds the first day they get in there and within a couple weeks by the most casual as they gear up. onyxia and bwl might take time to collect the flame cloaks(not sure if they will be needed or not) but people have done them without em. vanilla raiding isnt rocket surgery. its noob content and always was.

[Hothwompa-coilfang (Hothwompa)]

I don’t think anyone is going to argue that there’s going to be a raiding meta where hybrid and off-specs won’t be welcome. But I’d venture to say that there will be plenty of people who don’t care about being the absolute best.

This. After 15 years of vanilla wow, then later vanilla wow on private servers, players have thoroughly explored, sifted, processed, improvised, devised, and discovered every possible facet of the game, and that includes fringe builds, so called meme specs.

There will be super hardcore elite guilds full of like minded players that will obliterate content. I’m happy for them. But the majority will be laid back and more accepting of meme builds unless someone running a ret/enhance, melee hunter, balance or what ever meme build flat out stops progression. Even then they would simply heal whatever fight it was. Or sit on the bench no big deal.

[anon88549197]

Would you really expect a guy named Spud to be tall? Large maybe, but not tall.

[Kaylar-silver-hand (Kaylar)]

That sounds more like a group who would be doing 5mans rather than anything of raid level.

But when you have an entire guild with that viewpoint, eventually they’ll start to hit raids because why not? It’s basically “lets start doing a fun guild event!” Just because it requires a bunch of people doesn’t mean it requires a serious approach.

[Azzahn-runetotem]

The problem here is you can’t seem to imagine a group of people who have enough fun together that they don’t care if they have to carry some of their friends or if their raid comp holds them back because they really like hanging with each other and that’s the entire reason they’re raiding together. Not everyone cares about progression. Some people are just happy hanging with their friends and are glad their friends are having fun. I know it’s crazy talk, but some people value that above loot or pushing tiers.

Actually it’s because I can’t imagine why someone would want to play a class that ooms part way through a fight and just stands there NOT doing anything. Once again, what does that MECHANICAL issue have to do with the SOCIAL aspect of the game?

E.g. if I try to play moonkin in progression raiding I’m going to go oom.

If I try to play moonkin in a more casual guild that “just has fun”…I’M STILL GOING TO GO OOM.

Do you get it?

My issue isn’t not being allowed to play certain specs because of the community, my issue is the specs themselves being a hot pile of garbage in the first place, not because they aren’t “optimal”, but because they were missing things they needed TO EVEN FUNCTION IN THE FIRST PLACE in vanilla that wasn’t fleshed out until later expansions.

Difficulty has nothing to do with it either.

I’m not even talking about the dps potential of hybrid classes not being enough. I’m talking about the fact that it doesn’t matter when you go oom halfway through a fight. At that point the raid spot you’re occupying might as well be empty, because your output and contribution is effectively 0 because you can’t do anything.

Is that or is that not an issue in raids? Because I remember it being a pretty big deal.

[Makaio-kiljaeden]

That sounds more like a group who would be doing 5mans rather than anything of raid level.

But when you have an entire guild with that viewpoint, eventually they’ll start to hit raids because why not? It’s basically “lets start doing a fun guild event!” Just because it requires a bunch of people doesn’t mean it requires a serious approach.

I’m sure there’s going to be plenty of casual raiding groups.

Heck, I’m half planning (maybe quarter, I’m old and easily confused) on battle ressing my Sunday Drivers group, and doing casual raids on Sundays. Kill a few bosses, finish it or don’t, but have fun with the time we’re spending on it.

Raiding exists on a spectrum, with some going full bore (used to be me), and some focusing primarily on time spent with guildies and friends. There’s room for everyone in Classic.

[Kulldar-bronzebeard]

Didnt read thread. Just wanted to point out that OP dropped the dumbest analogy ever. Grats.

The main reason to play absolute optimal is because your bad and need the help. Otherwise play what you and enjoy.

[Gangsta-maiev]

Actually it’s because I can’t imagine why someone would want to play a class that ooms part way through a fight and just stands there NOT doing anything.

my issue is the specs themselves being a hot pile of garbage in the first place

you have literally zero vanilla feats of strength or roll-over achievements and by the way you are rambling on I am pretty sure you never even played vanilla. I was in a top guild on a top server and our best players all had multiple chars and multiple specs and could contribute on any/all of them and would switch out/respec as needed when absolutely necessary/trying new content that wasn’t tuned yet. we kicked crappy players regardless of spec and kept good players regardless of spec. even in vanilla all specs could be useful if played by a competent player and geared for the situation.

[Ogimirak-medivh]

I was in a top guild on a top server

ok, what guild, what server?

[Azzahn-runetotem]

you have literally zero vanilla feats of strength or roll-over achievements and by the way you are rambling on I am pretty sure you never even played vanilla.

Well damn…there goes all the sleep I’m going to lose tonight over that…

I was in a top guild on a top server and our best players all had multiple chars and multiple specs and could contribute on any/all of them and would switch out/respec as needed when absolutely necessary/trying new content that wasn’t tuned yet.

How many Balance druids did you bring on your guild’s first KT kill?

[Enrik-wyrmrest-accord (Enrik)]

That has got to the most brain dead analogy I’ve ever seen.

[Merkion-baelgun]

You probably dont know this but in vanilla wow there is a lot of consumables you can use, are you suggesting everyone in your raids has to use every single consumable possible? or whats the difference between a suboptimal spec using a bunch of consumes vs an optimal spec using half consumes?

For a hardcore guild I imagine that consumable were required. Every single one no matter how annoying.

I can’t exactly remember what I required people to do in my guild since I wasn’t that hardcore. I think when we were learning a fight (placement, mechanics, phases, etc.) I wasn’t that pressed about it. But once we felt like we had things figured out and could get the boss down consumables were required.