TBC Dual Spec

[Velenno-windseeker]

Dual spec isn’t just convenience. It is a large change to how the game plays.

Me as a healer for example here in Classic. I use mana runes on hard raid content when major mana potions alone aren’t enough. I have a hard time farming them in my resto spec. What I did back in earlier phases was grouped up with a DPS friend of mine and go kill satyrs together. One time it was a warrior and with my WF totem and healing him we had basically zero downtime. I kept the runes, we split the felcloth and herbs in the area and both made a good bit of money. We did the same thing in DME together. Now in phase 6 felcoth is worthless but we’ve done the same stuff in Scholo. I get a tank and some DPS that I raid with, we’re all naxx geared so we go and crush Scholo. The tank and DPS get bone fragments and crypt fiend parts for their leg enchants and I get the runes. This is quicker for our DPS if all the non instanced farms for bone fragments or crypt fiend parts are camped and quicker for me than grinding satyrs in resto spec.

I did similar stuff back in TBC when I was a healer. Grouped up with a prot pally friend while he AoE grinded the mobs outside black temple. With my healing and Wrath of Air totem he killed stuff faster and with little downtime and we split all the loot. Later on since he was a raid geared prot pally people would pay him for Heroic Shattered Halls runs. I’d go with him and as fast as we blew through that place the raw gold that dropped was profitable.

This was part of the game. If you were a tank or a healer you relied on your friends for help. That is a good thing. it is an MMO. You could always pay back the favor and tank or heal a dungeon for them. Dual spec removes this as a social aspect of the game.

I didn’t play on PvP servers but from my friends that did being caught in a PvP fight while in your PvE spec is part of the challenge. That is part of what makes world PvP different from instanced PvP. With or without dual spec people will respec for instanced PvP, but out in the world you catch them in their PvE spec. People have to improvise and adapt and try their best to fight you off while in a suboptimal spec for it. Here in Classic I’m not on a PvP server but if I was I would have to go out herbing in my resto spec. Even though resto isn’t the ideal PvP spec I would have to learn how to attempt to fight in it in case the herbs I wanted were contested. With dual spec I would just switch to my Ele/resto PvP spec everytime I went out farming. That changes how world PvP works.

This isn’t even touching player identity. Respeccing being rare meant your spec formed part of your identity too. You weren’t just a paladin, you were a prot paladin, the best one on the server, the one everybody wanted to tank their heroic shattered halls run.

Dual spec isn’t just a convenience feature, it changes social elements of gameplay and player identity.

All this being said, I could get behind something like a “PvP spec”. You go to your trainer, set your “PvP spec.” Any time you zone into a BG or an Arena you are automatically switched to your PvP spec and then switched out as soon as you leave. Respeccing for PvE remaining unchanged. This doesn’t cause any kind of gameplay change, as people almost always respec for instanced PvP anyways.

[Fizzlebang-grobbulus]

@Velenno-windseeker

I have a hard time farming them in my resto spec. What I did back in earlier phases was grouped up with a DPS friend of mine and go kill satyrs together.

Our server had Chinese gold sellers farming them for players for a fee of 300g for 20. Healers would just afk /follow as they get their runes. seems that not all are lucky as you were

[Warruz-sulfuras]

@Meatysteve-herod

It’s actually crazy to see the same dialogue that occurred in TBC/WotlK classic. People crying out for convenience features, that ultimately destroyed the game. Then they look back and wonder what happened. This is what happened. This exact discussion is why retail is the way it is, and why masses of people quit the game. What’s convenient isn’t always the best… as we’ve seen with LFD and many other systems.

It’s almost like, now bear with me here for a moment, people liked the QOL changes made in TBC and WOTLK, and didn’t like the changes that were made in Cata and onward (see sales figures to reflect this).

Its not black and white.

Most folks don’t want the swap to any spec whenever approach that retail has, but most do want to be able to easily go between PVP and PVE without being punished for it by wasting time. I know I personally want a PVP and PVE spec handy so i can play either whenever i feel like it without a bunch of fuss.

[Satuza-bleeding-hollow]

swapping specs is actually harder in retail than classic now since they added that stupid covenant bs and did a terrible job balancing them

[Fortyz-bigglesworth]

@Ayissa-mankrik

If having to respec is so inconvenient then why stop at dual spec?

Finding groups for dungeons/raids is such a pain - why not have a button to press and Blizzard will find you some single service friends to help you complete the dungeon/raid. You won’t even need to say a word to them.

Better get rid of those open world group quests too - wouldn’t want to inconvenience someone by having to find help to complete a quest.

And this whole loot drop RNG is so inconvenient. Let’s just all get our own personal loot from bosses so that you can stop caring about helping your fellow raiders.

Of course, all of these things have been done in retail and it’s why a lot of classic players stopped playing retail. These so called ‘inconveniences’ a big part of why players feel attached to their characters and the community.

It seems inevitable that classic will eventually progress to WotLK and beyond - for me this is when the soul slowly gets sucked out of the game and I’ll probably stop playing again. But I’d like to avoid that for as long as possible.

Lumping all the QoL changes together like they were all received and loved is pretty laughable. Over the years certain QoL decisions were extremely beneficial to the game, and that has never been doubted. Dual spec was one of those. Implying that giving players dual spec means we are destined to travel towards the cespool that retail became, is just dumb and not what the players are asking for.

[Wickedspells-ashkandi]

I would like to see it because what if u are a hard core PVP person and there is diffrent spec. then u want to raid and ur spec is diffrent i mean there rly isnt anything wrong with dual spec at all and to had it as a gold sink it is what it is.

[Meau-ursin]

So let me get this straight:

The forums are extremely upset at the idea of Blizzard offering boosts to those who want to experience Burning Crusade content instead of wading through hours of content nobody is doing, but are relatively okay with dual speccing being introduced when it wasn’t even a Burning Crusade feature?

[Elisande-earthfury]

No dual spec. Make respeccing free at a trainer

[Rysia-atiesh]

No dual spec… I hated it the first time around when it happened. I ended up with two druids that did the same thing, instead of having a druid for restro and a druid for boomkin with separate gears, talents, and tradeskilling. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO Dual Spec!!

[Grimlic-faerlina]

No dual speccing in TBC

[Hullk-skeram]

Yes for all things holy. Give us some form of dual spec. Even if it requires visiting a trainer I dont care, Just have it there without having to redo your talents every time you change specs(an addon is gonna be needed if you dont).

Hell even make the price high as hell, make it 1k, make it 5k I dont care just give us some option here

[Dfrost-fairbanks]

A lot of the points you touched on resonate with me.

The thing that didn’t is farming as a healer. I can farm herbs/mine/skin solo as a healer sure. But If I want to farm motes/primals or the like solo it takes way longer. I get that you can group with people and I would if that was the case everytime I was able to log on to farm.

Classic was an eye opener in this area as the times that I was online to farm when not raiding, the server was nearly vacant save for WTS(insert carry). We don’t all play at peak hours to team up for a farm.

I truly believe that adding dual specialization would directly effect the individual who chooses to use it. Those who don’t want to, don’t have to.

You can always start an RP guild who doesn’t allow dual spec over concern for character identity.

No matter if you have dual spec or not, you will be recognized for your accomplishments. Your actions make you known as ‘the best prot paladin on the server’ not whether or not you had dual spec.

You are also right. You Class and Talent Spec are part of your character identity. Who are we to say that others cannot find identity in two specializations. I like filling roles for the guild/raid as required to foster teamwork. I would gladly carry two specs to do this and not have to slow my guild down while they wait to summon me or another person back from respeccing. I am sure I am not alone in that.

You are not preventing the dual character identity, only making it more annoying to the end user by not having dual spec. Thus the quality of life argument.

[Ayissa-mankrik]

I remember back when dual spec came out in WotLK I thought that it was great. It was so convenient being able to freely switch between two specs and it made me feel much more powerful.

It wasn’t until later I realised I’d lost something as well. I was a shadowpriest in original TBC and I loved playing that role - it very much became part of the identify of my character. I did occasionally help with healing on raids, but I was never going to be great at it.

But with dual spec I wasn’t really a shadowpriest any more. I was just a regular priest and with the press of a button I could switch between healing and dps - just like all the other priests.

It’s obviously just a personal opinion but, looking back, for me the extra convenience of dual spec didn’t make up for the intangible loss of how I felt about my character. I never appreciated how important that was until it was gone.

I felt similarly about a lot of the other changes introduced over time into WoW. I even thought LFD and LFR were great when they were first introduced. I didn’t appreciate until later just how much interaction they had cut out of the game, and the impact that had on the community.

[Thundathighs-remulos]

@Oberon-bigglesworth

I’m not really sure what you are trying to argue here. If you feel like elaborating or clarifying I would be happy to respond.

As the 14 years of playing has taught me, just because someone has the “right” spec doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing.

@Oberon-bigglesworth

Dual Spec I believe would actually encourage people to have an OPTIMAL raid spec that will actually be more beneficial to the raid where they forego talents that they may not have given up without the dual spec option b/c of how expensive it is.

It’s 100g a week, not the end of the world to farm. Heck even passive dungeon income pays for it. Ever raided with a terrible tank cause your MT has to have a night off? I have, and it’s literal torture for everyone involved.

@Oberon-bigglesworth

So with Dual Spec that means when people step into a heroic they will be able to bring their most optimal build and spec which will actually reduce repair bills, wipes, and inefficency. It looks like you are once again supporting my point.

NO, You think that optimal spec will fix everything, Ever seen a dagger rogue spamming sinister strike? I have it’s hilarious.

@Oberon-bigglesworth

I think your argument here once again supports Dual Spec. People that queue for random BGs or Arenas will now be bringing their most OPTIMAL spec which will increase the performance of the individual and the team they are supporting.

History says no.

@Oberon-bigglesworth

Overall, I think your arguments are mostly supporting the fact that having a Dual-Spec option where it allows people to bring their MOST optimal spec to different facets of the game, without the respec cost penalty, would be better for the game.

Because spec knowledge and spec are two completely different things. The amount of times I’ve needed to correct “top shamans” from other guilds on their gearing or winced at their parses is so common and that’s in classic, not in TBC where gearing gets infinitely more difficult.

Dual spec is a solution to a problem that can be fixed with people actually learning how to play their toons properly and spending alittle bit of time playing the game to pay for their respecs.

[Thundathighs-remulos]

@Meau-ursin

The forums are extremely upset at the idea of Blizzard offering boosts to those who want to experience Burning Crusade content instead of wading through hours of content nobody is doing, but are relatively okay with dual speccing being introduced when it wasn’t even a Burning Crusade feature?

Hey don’t use logic, it’s not welcome here.

[Rockyracoon-kirtonos]

Why not add dual spec with some up front cost, but make it so you have to be at your class trainer to swap. It would be just like now, it would simply put an upper limit on how much you spend on respecs (between your two chosen specs, respec cost still apply if you want to change one).

That way if you want to raid and play arena on the same character, you can do that without needing to pay for 2+ respecs every week forever.

[Oberon-bigglesworth]

@Thundathighs-remulos

As the 14 years of playing has taught me, just because someone has the “right” spec doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing.

I’m not disputing that, however, with the addition of free respecs at class trainers or a dual spec option that is available only in major city hubs where people can swap their specialization, it is only going to improve QoL in all facets of the game and the people you group with.

To play devil’s advocate someone can also spec ways that make them wholly inefficient in PVE or PVP because they don’t know what they are doing as well. In terms of logic, it makes more sense to allow more opportunities for people to optimize their spec so they are ideally set up for any content they are playing.

Because I could make the argument that someone with the “wrong” spec is going to perform less efficiently in any given facet than someone who is bringing the “right” specialization for that area (Raiding, Heroics, PVP, etc…)

Thus, dual spec will increase the likelihood that people are bringing the “right” or more OPTIMIZED spec to any given facet of the game which will only benefit the community.

TLDR if someone is bad at the game, spec optimization won’t fix them, but they will perform better-having access to an optimized spec rather than not.

@Thundathighs-remulos

It’s 100g a week, not the end of the world to farm. Heck even passive dungeon income pays for it. Ever raided with a terrible tank cause your MT has to have a night off? I have, and it’s literal torture for everyone involved.

100g a week for some specializations or classes can be a barrier to participation in different areas of the game. For example, a deep resto or holy spec’d class or even some of the tanking classes will often feel like this, especially when compared to pure dmg dealing classes on PVP servers that are able to perform decently in World PVP in their PVE specs (Rogues, Mages, Locks, DPS shams, Ferals, Balance, etc…)

Additionally, for extremely active players it could well be over 300g+ a week depending on guild activities, arenas, heroics, raids etc…

Moreover, your arguments that you are making are not actually arguments against dual spec, they are against partying with players that are not skilled. Dual Spec is never going to help people that lack adequate ability. However, it is going to encourage people who are skilled to play the games in more ways than they would otherwise.

@Thundathighs-remulos

NO, You think that optimal spec will fix everything, Ever seen a dagger rogue spamming sinister strike? I have it’s hilarious.

Once again, another argument about skill (Not really an argument against Dual Spec, but I think you don’t really have a well-formulated rebuttal for that anyway).

I would add though, that a dagger rogue spamming sinister strike is less likely if that rogue is able to adequately swap their specialization for one that optimizes dagger DPS or vice versa.

@Thundathighs-remulos

History says no.

Have any data to support that claim? No? That’s what I thought. The most popular expansion numerically in WoW’s history featured Dual Spec.

@Thundathighs-remulos

Because spec knowledge and spec are two completely different things. The amount of times I’ve needed to correct “top shamans” from other guilds on their gearing or winced at their parses is so common and that’s in classic, not in TBC where gearing gets infinitely more difficult.

Dual spec is a solution to a problem that can be fixed with people actually learning how to play their toons properly and spending alittle bit of time playing the game to pay for their respecs.

Once again your argument that you are trying to make is actually about player skill which isn’t related to Dual Spec.

However, I could reasonably argue that the ability for classes to seamlessly swap their spec at a major city hub at their class trainer for free will only improve the level of performance of all classes on average across the board, it will increase participation of all classes across the board and contribute to a healthier and longer-lasting TBC community on our servers.

[Cauchy-heartseeker]

@Rockyracoon-kirtonos

Why not add dual spec with some up front cost, but make it so you have to be at your class trainer to swap. It would be just like now, it would simply put an upper limit on how much you spend on respecs (between your two chosen specs, respec cost still apply if you want to change one).

That way if you want to raid and play arena on the same character, you can do that without needing to pay for 2+ respecs every week forever.

That’s not far off from how it was when it was introduced. You’d buy the ability for something like 100g (maybe more… it’s been a while.) Players could only swap spec in their capitol.

[Drakk-nazjatar (Drakk)]

Agreed. I would like to see TBC dual spec. I know a lot of others would as well. Not sure how I feel about the 5k cost though.

[Elaice-blades-edge (Elaice)]

I am against both.