I fundamentally disagree with what he’s been saying, but I no longer believe he is a troll. I think his request could be a valid one IF blizz ever changed it so that 1 point in a 2 node unlocked pathing instead of requiring both points to do so, that would remove the “tax” but provide flexibility for pumping up a 2 point option if a player wanted to do so. But as things currently sit this is not the case so less two point nodes are just better for now.
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Argument from a design perspective. I am simply defending the continuity from tree to tree. From what I’ve seen over the years: An asymmetry (see my post above with the data) would potentially lead to there being no multipoint talents.
Then they’ll just revert to MoP talents. It’s hardly a troll request.
There are miles of space between a DF tree with no multipoint nodes and the MoP system.
And that’s coming from someone who desperately wishes we would go back to the MoP system.
The thing is yall need to think about what that means. Like assuming you can path normally through 2 point nodes with a singular point, you’re not going to be doing that to fine tune your Maelstrom gen. You’re going to leverage that to make a completely busted build.
Like using this logic with the DF tree and current tier set, You’d drop Elemental Blast and Elemental Equilibrium, then grab the Pwave leaf, put 1 point in Echo Chamber and grab Mountains Will Fall. You then can either do one point into Oath of the Farseer to also get Further Beyond or 1 point in Magma Chamber and grab Windspeakers; you’re left with a free point now to flex or you get rid of mountains will fall to grab both those leafs. You now have a build where you going to just rotate between Earth Shock to proc Lava Surge and insta cast Lava Bursts. Once you hit a Dre window the Further Beyond leaf, that would allow to potentially have up to 12 second for your DRE windows with a small haste amp. You’ve now just treated these 2 points functionally as 1 point nodes. The effect of each individual node will be diluted yes but when combined them with things that were never meant to be combined, what ever loss you had from investing only a singular point is made up from different talent combinations. At that point what is even the point of them being 2 point nodes when you’re only sticking 1 point in them. Blizzard’s response then is either to gut the throughput of all those nodes or to stick all 2 point nodes at the end of the tree and clog up to post 20 point row with 2 point nodes that have no pathing…WHICH IS EXACTLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES WE HAVE WITH ENHANCEMENT’S SPEC TREE.
That is why the point restriction should be lifted. I agree that currently the state of the tree would potentially be made worse by inclusion of more two point talents. That’s why I had said “adjust accordingly”; As far as what’s intended with “play” on the tree. I agree Enhancement could be getting choked by their multipoints as much a Holy Priest’s.
To reiterate: Unless you don’t believe a player should have the freedom (and I think it would be cool) to control their resource generation and “right-size” it via some multipoint talents. Ignore that it may not be implemented correctly currently. Assume that Blizzard had adjusted it accordingly based on the rest of the tree. Then ask yourself, based on the impact your gear may provide for you via Maelstrom generation: If you’d like the option to adjust the generation for more or less?
Quite literally no because overcapping is not an issue but your spenders costing more harms the Fire builds in cleave and single target scenarios in raid. Taking the perspective of Season 2 with playing Lightning Builds you want to avoid over capping but thats just a matter of playing the build correctly. If somebody is overcapping that much it would in fact be a DPS gain for you to have Elemental Blast cost more, thats a skill issue not a spec tree design issue. I’d rather not have terrible tree design because somebody is unable to account for resource management.
I’m going to absolutely think about how it would be implemented and the related potential consequences and implications. You don’t plan a trip pretending you have 30 million dollars if you infact don’t right?
So let’s think about how this would work in practice with the current tree and tier set: Eye of the Storm is right at the border of the 20 point line. Again open the talent calculator and do this yourself: build the pure single target fire build but put only put 1 point in Eye. You still need one more point before you can begin taking talents beyond the 20 marker. Your choices are:
a.1 point into power of the Maelstrom which has such low synergy with Fire Builds and the current tier set
b.1 point into either Tumultuous Fissures/Inudate which is borderline useless in most fights
c. Drop Icefury and Flux Melting/Electrified Shocks to stick points into grab Tumultuous Fissures/Inudate, Call of Thunder, Unrelenting Calamity, Stormkeeper, and Stormkeeper. So you’ve now removed a significant movement option which on a fights where you need it like Nymue, Smoulderon (Especially on Mythic) and also lost a point in the process since it would take you 21 points to path into a spot where you can have 20+ points and grab pwave by either putting that 21th point into either Eye or Power of Maelstrom. All of which has extremely low synergy if you’re trying to build for pure single target.
This seems like a weird hill to die on when the alternative with the new ele tree is more freedom in impactful choices that would fundamentally change how you’d think about playing your spec and interact with a build composed of different talent selections. 2 point nodes hurts more of the Ele player base than the few people who are playing Ele in an incorrect manner that they are unable to managed their resources in a fight (aka a skill issue) needing a niche design format that would be DOA considering what other specs would be able to do with this.
This point is inane. I assume you aren’t really following how ridiculous Maelstrom generation can get during AOE situations. You absolutely would want to adjust generation with Tempest inbound. Considering that it isn’t fully implemented with the haste benefits that Lightning Bolt is. Stormbringer is giving more focus on generation and overcapping will occur. Which absolutely justifies expanding Swelling Maelstrom, because of the potential from Storm Swell or Arc Discharge. If we end up getting the haste from Unlimited Power AND Tempest coefficients are actually broken. Removing or adding a point to Swelling Maelstrom for the extra total Maelstrom; while keeping the Stormbringer tree in mind… Yeah, it’s A PROBLEM – and two points are the solution.
I’ll happily die on that hill. Knowing that we can argue the semantics of the which nodes to take over the others. Which is the point of a functioning tree.
However, if we don’t address and acknowledge how removing multipoint talents could adversely affect the continuity of a tree. From one expansion to another then we’re failing: Here I am a player that is being negatively affected by a somewhat ill-informed decision. That being to scrap what could be consider a conceptual core to a specialization, in form of ten multiple point talents, to nothing. I don’t care if you think “NOBODY WANTS TWO-POINTS”. That’s bigotry and you know it. It isn’t every player that can grasp the interplay of every point of the tree. And even though it’s an overall buff to Elemental in terms of power. It belies the fact that multiple point talents provide “utility” and peace of mind to some players who may be overwhelmed by the wide array of choices. By that reasoning should be available.
You clearly are not doing active testing on beta because quite literally issue with Stormbringer Lighting Builds is its not generating enough Maelstrom. You literally have no idea what you’re talking about.
And I have to stress this again: Overcapping is only an issue if you’re doing it all the time which is entirely a skill issue.
We did. Having 2 point talent nodes are more harmful to the whole of the player base and you’re wrong.
It’s not because theres a entire thread where people were screaming about having too many 2 point nodes. And claiming that its bigotry in this fashion quite literally devalues the word so you should be ashamed.
Quite literally a personal skill issue. You have the power to not make overcapping Maelstrom not an issue.
Here’s the thing, I’ve look through your logs from every season of DF and I have not seen any evidence that you were talenting in a manner to gain this “utility”. So you’re arguing about something you’ve never put into practice and are now complaining about not being able to do a thing that you never did.
You literally lack the capacity and knowledge to have any meaningful conversation about spec tree design. We’re not arguing semantics. We’re telling you’re wrong.
…what
I cant think of a single way multiple point talents have provided “utility”.
And is your argument that people are too stupid to have 1 point talent nodes, and are overwhelmed?
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Quite literally this.
I see you typing a response and this is what I’ll tell you to do this before you waste your time with whatever ill informed strawman argument you’re gonna post: Go post this in the beta thread or in the general fourms. Go see what other people think.
If you’re going to make the argument of it being a “tax” to have a multipoint talent because you could get something else in the tree: Then by logic, the opposing situation is possible. That’s why I consider it “utility”. Circumventing the argument about why they had made it two points to begin with. Controlling the narrative via the notion of it being an overall buff, in the case of Elemental. I put forward the argument of symmetry again. It’s an injustice, when you put a mirror to their placement.
What?
I honestly have no clue what you are trying to say in your response
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2/2 ← 1/1 → 0/1 → 0/1
0/2 ← 1/1 → 1/1 → 1/1
1/2 ← 1/1 → 1/1 → 0/1
I think he’s actually crazy and/or quite severely doesn’t understand how this game works.
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I still don’t know what you are trying to say
Why is having a 2 point node better in that scenario?
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No. The argument is that is garbage game design. Your argument is that 2 pointers somehow helps incompetent players. Please cancel your sub.
I never said incompetent.
Players “learning” or may want to avoid an active for a passive. Multipoint talents have been a convention of the game from the original game till MoP. If you’re going to say that all of that is garbage, there’s no more intelligence to be exchanged.
You haven’t said a single intelligent thing. You’ve just been arguing about a complete non issue with made scenarios while also asking everyone to not think about how it would actually work in practice because your idea is dumb, so you’re engaging in mangled sophistry and constantly moving the goal post. It’s also something you’ve never put into practice at any point judging by your logs so you’re literally just grifting. Again go post this cook in the general thread and see if everyone is going to agree about having more 2 point nodes in their trees.
Or hear me out: they just learn how it works. No need to clog up the talent tree when again, its a skill issue. Its on the player themself to fix.
Pretty much. If you look at all of his logs, its just the copy and paste lightning build.
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Yes, the Vanilla-Wrath trees were absolutely garbage, where the only freedom and flexibility came down to a mix of players in general not understanding the game well enough to make/enforce good build decisions, and the talents themselves being so low impact per point (1% damage, 0.1 second cast time, etc. lol) that as long as you weren’t deviating more than a handful of points from the cookie cutter or skipping obviously crucial stuff like Mortal Strike as an Arms warrior or the ability to dual wield as Enhancement, they just weren’t actually making a difference.
At this point I’m becoming more and more convinced that you don’t even truly believe any of the justifications you’re putting out. You’re just convinced that the reduction in multipoint talents is taking us back to the MoP system (which… lol. There is no comparison between the DF system and the MoP system, even without a single multipoint talent in any tree), and will reach for any argument you can think of to fight against that, no matter how flimsy.
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