Well, if I suddenly found myself in Talanji’s shoes, I’d probably have done the same thing she did.
Firstly, the Horde seems a likely ally to help save Zandalar from it’s enemies. The Alliance would not be inviting much confidence of a warm reception simply based off of history, but the Horde has the Darkspear Trolls within it’s ranks.
Secondly, Zandalar was in serious danger, and needed allies. My only beef here is that she didn’t contact the Horde sooner, but the story is hostage to game play. I can only imagine Talanji might’ve contacted the Horde as early as Cataclysm or even Burning Crusade.
Thirdly, the loss of Rezan was a terrible blow, but Talanji wasn’t entirely aware that Rastakan had made a deal with Bwonsamedi. It’s not a deal she can really get out of, even if it involved her without her consent. All she can do is accept it and do her best to make sure she doesn’t become even more indebted to the Loa of Death.
Fourthly, she has to rule this ancient empire with more pride than power. If she starts saying, “It’s my fault my father is dead because I provoked the Alliance by cooperating with the Horde,” she’s not going to be ruling for very long. Considering some of the other Zandalari we’ve seen, it’s unlikely there are any other than Talanji who can prevent the Empire from collapsing in upon it’s own ponderous weight of pride and ego.
Overall, while Talanji cannot escape the fact that much of her choices and actions resulted in what has happened, she can also take solace in the knowledge she made the best possible choices in the worst of situations. Allying with the Horde was a good idea, and considering the instability within it, a powerful figurehead such as herself stands to gain a lot if a schism should arise. Much of the Horde’s lands are borderline inhospitable and low on resources, while Zandalar is rich in resources. She stands to gain quite a bit in the Horde, and have a fair bit of influence should she choose to exercise it.
Say WHAT?! What Instigator of conflict? She was on diplomatic mission and was captured. We don’t know when she was captured, it could’ve been before Teldrassil burn as the events happen within the days. And lastly - honest question - why should Zandalari care about night elves, of all people? There is nothing nelves did to make Zandalari care about them, quite the opposite. Their common history is the history of conflict and destruction. Their indifferency is perfectly reasonable, and lastly they had no part in it.
She is supposed to represented Horde side as a good queen, however when we analyze her actions she has failed almost at every point. She failed to realize Zul was the perpetrator of the Zandalar’s issues, She failed to realize that allying with the Horde would bring the war to her home and she failed to stop zul’s invasion and the Alliance’s. She then proceeds to blame everyone else Never reflects that she might share some of this responsibility.
For Zul, she had her suspicions and this is why she made her expedition to start acting. She made intiative because she noticed that some things were not right, like guard fleeing from Nazmir and missing security in the port, she suspected that some Zanchuli council members were behind it as she said in the beginning speech but she didn’t have any proof about any act of trecheary this is why she picked champion of the Horde to assist her and find out the root of the cause. And she indeed figured it out.
She did assisted in Uldir and her Zandalari together with Horde finished the threat of G’huun for good. That was success. What YOU wrote is to expect from her to be omnipotent Mary Sue to stop all the bad things to happen. She is not Jaina to pull out stunts to change completely tides of war.
I love how somehow she gets all this credit for being such a good leader when she literally does nothing and would have died if the Horde was not constantly saving her rear end. Shes our version of Anduin and I hate her.
She doesn’t get all the credit, I agree that Vol’Jin’s 2nd part of questline was really pushing
it but she never herself took the credit for anything. She was always giving credit to her father, to Horde Speaker to Darkspears and especially Rokhan, to Horde overall. I don’t see a reason to blame her for her father’s death when all her actions were aiming to prevent it, she really loved her father despite being critical of his inaction toward blood troll threat. But as some people wrote Rastakhan was on his path to fix his mistakes this is why he should remain as the leader Talanji could’ve been in charge of Golden Fleet (of what remained of it) so she could maintain active role and be part of world events without feeling out of place and giving her time to get more experience about world politics and give her option to commit mistakes that wouldn’t immediately affect her country. That I think would be perfect set up.
So no killing Talanji is not an option, especially when we were long overdue for prominent troll female character - and a Loa priest that is! And she has all the right traits you’d expect from a troll woman. She can be vicious and caring, she is not holding back when using violence but is reasonable to make alliances when it’s benefitting her people. The only similarity she has with Anduin is that she is a priest and lost her father, but besides of that she is dramatically different. She is not peace preacher, she puts her Zandalari on pedestal and not well being of a faction her people are in conflict with. She is ideallistic but she is also disillusioned about certain things unlike Anduin enforcing his visions on others despite his own personal experience not supporting it. This is why Vol’Jin fancied her as she is willing to change the Zandalari politics to fit into the modern world and adapt to it rather than desperaely clinging to the past. She is a material for very good leader that isn’t a total retard like Jaina or Anduin. And so far shown that she can avoid deadly traps, like becoming subfaction of Horde or going for easy way and killing Sylvanas to get off her curse. She is deffinietly not all powerful and she failed to protect her father and secure her people from Alliance agression. But her actual reign begins now if she will do what Vol’Jin failed to do - so uniting all the troll tribes - she will truly be Leader with capital L and I take political competency over flashy powers.
How is she not an Instigator, as i’ve pointed out she started this venture likely during or after the war of thorns. She was traveling the Zul who was the Antagonist to both factions on her way to Orgimmar on as you said a diplomatic reason. I don’t expect her to care about the Night elves but she should care that the side she has joined has just committed to a Genocidal world war.
I don’t know why people keep pointing to the Horde being the most approachable to get help. Lets weigh up the two options
Horde:
-Has Trolls
-Said trolls refused to assist Zandalar in uniting the tribes and instead lead both Horde and Alliance against them.
-Is being Lead by an Undead Blood elf who has a bad temper
Alliance:
-Doesn’t have trolls
-Has worked with both the Zandalar in vanilla and Darkspear in Cata.
-Is being lead by Anduin a human preist who is known for wanting to help people.
-Has fought the Zandalar to prevent them taking over the world.
Yet alot of horde players are happy to point to this being the reason why the Alliance started the war. it’s a bit of a double standard if Zul didn’t start the war with the Alliance because of his actions and drag the Zandalari into it.
She actively fails at everything she attempts to do. As you state she is aware of suspicious actions of the Council yet fails to stop them thus ending in Zul Invading and destroying the Seal. She actively supports the Horde leading to her people’s fleet being decimated and her City attacked again. She basically has Lead the Zandalar to ruin In a short span of time and then Solidifies her allegiance to the Horde which we all know will probably end badly.
Rastakan may have been stuck in his ways but he atleast kept the Zandalar intact and powerful for a few hundread years.
She was a character setup to be a good queen however she ended up bring about the Destruction of her people.
How would she know this? And why would she care? You keep talking as if Talanji had complete autonomy to get a nation involved in anything and that she had some kind of meta knowledge of world events or even cared about such things that don’t involve her people. The final decision rested with Rastakhan to do anything. And he gave the ok. He could’ve ordered everyone in that port killed if he so wished if he wanted to not involve his people.
As far as your weight of the two options. I want you to think about this insane logic you have. How would Talanji know anything about Anduin and why would she care? Why would she care the an undead elf leads the Horde? She wouldn’t. The mere fact that there are no Trolls on one side but Trolls on another would have her gravitate to the group with members of her own race. It’s something you’d do too if given the option between a group with no humans in it and another group with humans.
Talanji wasn’t some independent force that can just act whenever she wants. She needed proof, she needed her father’s permission, and she needed sanction. As Jakra’zet said, she was pushing it by going on a diplomatic mission unsanctioned when she said she was just going exploring. Which would explain why Zul was with her instead of literally anyone else. She wasn’t supposed to be reaching out. She may’ve brought the Horde to Zandalar but Rastakhan allowed them to stay instead of having them slaughtered wholesale. She didn’t gain any level of autonomy until either Rastakhan granted it or when he died.
If that was the case then she has no reason to hold the Alliance for blame for capturing her. If she was doing it unsanctioned and traveling with someone like Zul she should have been expected to be arrested and thrown in prison. Can’t pull the Diplomatic card or Royal princess card if she was traveling without Rastakan’s approval.
Also doesn’t change the fact that she pushed for the Zandalar to Join the Horde which lead to the eventual invasion of her city by the Alliance. IF she had spent the time instead trying to uproot the Corruption in the Council she may have prevented Zul’s invasion and avoided getting involved in the war.
Why did Talanji have Zul along, anyway? Was that ever explained?
If she knew all the animosity he’d generated with the factions, why bring him on a diplomatic mission? (And what would the Horde have thought of him if Talanji had gotten to Orgrimmar?)
If she didn’t know all the things he’d done, why bring him along when she clearly disliked him?
She was traveling with Rastakhan’s approval she definitely could pull the princess card. He approved for her to go out and explore the world. He didn’t approve for her to go on a diplomatic mission. Still why would she care that Zul made the Alliance angry? Not a single person in there would care if she were the suffering party and they aren’t friends. She had no reason to care of their plight when she had one of her own.
Listen to yourself. Why are you assuming that Talanji had any level of power to call out or uproot the Council, her father’s personal entourage and the most power people in Zandalar? That’s like saying the President’s kid has the power to decide the fates of his Cabinet. It has never worked like that. How would she go about that when she needed help with basic and threats in the city like securing the port itself.
She went for help because she couldn’t get the help she needed to both get the proof of the Council corruption which was still just a suspicion. She had no idea that they submitted to G’huun or that the entirety of the Council were traitors at this point. There was no proof or anything, only suspicion. And when you suspect the very Spymaster of your people of treason, you have a problem. And she repeatedly told her father to deal with the Blood Trolls, a massive threat. A threat that even Zul when he betrayed Rastakhan, said that he should’ve listened. Without Rastakhan’s support on either endeavor Talanji’s hands were tied and she was desperate.
It’s never really explained. Either she had no idea the extent of Zul’s activities outside of Zandalar and allowed him to come. Or Rastakhan had Zul come along as he was one of the few people that had been outside of the kingdom extensively. Plus since Talanji was his daughter he wanted to send a Council member to ensure safety during her exploring. Those are just my theories.
The whole thing is terrible writing, They never explain why she is traveling with him or why Anduin arrested her and didn’t speak with her.
Blizzards writing in this expac has been so full of holes it feels like we should just throw out any context of the narrative.
Wasn’t she the royal princess , Next in line for the throne? I mean when you quest through Zandalar you see her taking command of troops and soldiers including the Royal guard. We are also expected to believe she has the love and loyalty of her people. Yet a Horde outsider apparently can uproot the corruption without issue. yeah that makes a lot of sense.
She should care if Zul has made the Alliance angry if it means they would be gunning to arrest him or kill him. I mean if the alliance just decided to blow her ship out of the water instead of capturing them because they thought she was just one of his collaborators no one could blame the Alliance for that.
She isn’t going to be a good queen if she continues to only care for only her own peoples plight if it means that she continues to put herself at odds with other world powers. Her actions so far have lead her people to ruin and she is only going to continue to bring about further downfall of the Zandalar empire if she keeps it up.
You remember that whenever she took command of troops, her father had already deployed them and she volunteered to lead the force. Without her father the only other people that could deploy soldiers and operatives were Yazmat and Jakra’zet whom she already was suspicious of. She had no autonomy in deploying troops. We also didn’t really uproot anything. The coup went off without a hitch. They revolted, stole the power of a loa, killed Rastakhan (though Rezan got his soul back), killed the Loa of Kings, and took over both the temple and the tomb of kings and began to raise the dead. We only stopped them after their objective of destorying the last seal was completed. We failed.
Again why would she care? She had her own crisis to worry about. Be it naivety or willful ignorance of Zul’s activities she had little cause to research on the Alliance, their issues, or what Zul did to ruffle their feathers if she knew at all.
She’s only at odds with the Alliance though. Plus a good ruler takes care of the home issues before worrying about how to engage with the neighbors. Sure she’ll need to get to know world issues now that she’s with the Horde proper now but by ensure her people’s happiness, she’ll be a good ruler.
How is she a good ruler though? What has she done to save her people? I mean she brought the Horde to this Island which brought the war to her people. She failed to stop Zul’s Invasion even with their help. The Alliance has invaded because she allied the zandalar with the Horde, Her father was killed because of this. She couldn’t even work out what the Deal was with Vol’jin she only knows the Loa didn’t want her as warchief but then never brings it up to the other leaders.
I mean she is a complete failure as a leader and has only cemented it by formally agreeing to Ally with the Horde considering they are losing the war.
Honestly its just because the Story is terribly written, I appreciate she is supposed to be a leader liked but the Horde however really the Story fails to convey this. Its like all Anduins failures as leader being brushed over and ignored.
what has she done to save her people? her actions saved them from Ghuun and all of the old god forces arrayed on the island. Without Talanji the Zandalari would have eventually been wiped out and converted. rastakhan was not going to ask for help, and if he did it would have been at the point where it was WAAYY too late.
Yes, help against the old gods came at a price, the ire of the Alliance. A small price to pay for salvation against absolute oblivion.
Now granted, the horde campaign is basically the horde failing at every single objective over and over again and losing to Zul/blood trolls/sethrakk until eventually a group of murder hobos band together to kill ghuun.
However, talanji is not a failure. She made the best possible decision in a bad situation. Yea, everything did not turn out as planned. Sometimes you can do everything right and still fail, thats life.
That said, im not exactly enthralled with her character so far, but its still early i suppose.
Because capturing a diplomat is in bad practice. It’s the same as taking out people who come to negotiate for hostages or whatever. It closes that door forever and seals the fate of any future prisoner, stops any future deals from occuring and makes for a murky future, both in the military and for the civilian populace.
Her capture was also not after Teldrassil.
The powers of Bwonsamedi were tearing at him, though the Alliance still killed him. They deliberately tricked the Horde & some of its fleet to leave, only to swoop in and kill Rastakhan.
She did every possible thing she could and still failed. That’s life. Her own people’s leaders couldn’t be either trusted or relied upon so she went for help. There is always risks but you do what you need to save as much as you can.
Rastakhan died because the Alliance sucks at making a man full of pride surrender. He was a victim of his own decisions. He allowed the Horde into Zandalar and drew the Alliance’s ire, he allowed himself to stagnate, he allowed himself to be blinded by the threats to his kingdom, and he allowed himself to be blind to his own council’s corruption. Don’t blame Rastakhan’s failure as a king upon his daughter who had to find a solution in a bad situation.
How did anything she do prevent Ghuun from escaping, the answer is that it didn’t. Zul manage to achieve everything he set out to do. In fact the Alliance even come in afterwards and help in Uldir in stopping Ghuun.
If she had stayed in her Cell with Zul probably would have been better. Zul wouldn’t have been able to start his rebellion and the Alliance wouldn’t need to invade Zandalar.
Or she could have simply also asked the Alliance for assistance
Right… She’s somehow equipped with retrospective sight and meta knowledge… Stop it. You do realize that with our without us, G’huun’s forces would’ve succeeded. We limited the casualties.
Asking the alliance for assistance, in hindsight, might have been the better solution. However such a path is only available because Anduin is in charge (although Malfurion might be sympathetic as well due to some nostalgia from the war of the ancients). The alliance and many alliance races have a very very LOOONG history of exterminating trolls. That said, that is with the benefit of hindsight. Also we have no idea how Horde (or sylvanus) might have retaliated. For all we know she could have blighted the whole island to keep the zandalari out of the alliance hands.
EDIT: as for the zul achieved everything he set out to do, yes he did. But then the champions of the horde gathered and killed ghuun, rendering everything the blood trolls, sethrakk, and zuls rebellion did pointless. As a bonus to pissing off the alliance, the alliance wiped out the blood trolls in their invasion of zandalari. So really, other than the loss of their king and navy, everything is coming up aces for the zandalari all things considered. Zul is gone, all of the conspirators are gone, blood trolls gone, etc etc. Zandalari went on a juice diet and purged.
Again its poor writing, I mean Saurfang was apparently aware they were there and who they were. He was ready to work for the Alliance and turn on the Horde but still basically sells the Zandalar to Sylvanas,. I mean this story is so stupid and the writers have done a terrible job in making her story make sense.
So do the Horde, I mean your literally playing a Nightbourne who represent the empire that Originally destroyed the Zandalars Empire back in the Day. The Horde Have Bloodelves who to this day are still at war with the forest trolls and have their city parked on a Holy troll site. I really don’t get why People keep saying this when the Horde have killed just as many trolls as the alliance have.
Nightborne have been trapped in a literal bubble for…how many thousands of years? They havent done much to trolls. Hell, trolls didnt even know the nightborne existed.
There are far more races in the horde who have worked together or were sympathetic to trolls even going back to WC1.
Also, trollbane. That is kinda a case closed right there. I mean, in the real world if someone had the name of (insert ethnicity here)-bane you would probably peg them as an uber racist. The fact of the matter is that the alliance and the races of the alliance are the traditional enemies of the trolls. Dont get me wrong, Anduin would totally work with trolls.
Also, it was the alliance that intigated wiping out zuljin because Bud+pals wanted to loot zul aman. A NE is the one that caused the desert trolls to be wiped out. The list goes on and on.
Yet they were part of the same empire That destroyed the Zandalar empire at its peak, Same as the night elves and blood elves.
Ah yes they worked with the forest trolls, how’d that work out for them. Oh wait the horde have now allied with the bloodelves which put Zuljin and forest trolls at war with the Horde and now the Horde forces kill them on a daily basis in the blood elf starting zone. Both factions have been killing them, Just because Bud lead the way the Horde didn’t have to follow them.
Ah Trollbane, when was the last time we heard of that family name killing tribes of trolls, there is like one left and he has been stuck in Outlands since wc2? I’ll give you another name: Vol’jin he basically was the leader of both the Alliance and Horde forces that stormed Zulgurub and Zulaman in opposition to rallying the troll empires with the Zanadlar and Also opposed them in Pandaria and their plans to expand there.
Another plot point that she forgets, when she goes searching for his spirit.
When was this? I mean both factions invade the Desert trolls home in vanilla and Cata.
Point is that both factions are as bad as each other however Only one is lead by a crazy evil undead blood elf.
Well yea the horde is overall the worse faction due to slyvanus, however if i was a troll (and knew nothing about Anduin) i would absolutely trust the horde over the alliance as at least there is SOME history of cooperation (on top of one of the races being troll) compared to the alliance which only has a history of extermination against the troll.s
You are doing some pretty extreme backflips here over why cant the trolls trust the horde over the alliance when the reason is very simple. Trusting the horde is the logical choice. trusting the alliance would be extremely illogical given history.
That said, the logical choice is not always the right one.