The Machine only judges actions(the Sinstone of the World Reaper specifically stated that her finest virtue is unintended which means the Arbiter cares only about Actions not Morality) to see if Souls are worthy of Revendreth or the Maw.
She if she hasn’t judged judged them worthy of either will send them to a place that matches their personality without regard to the state of their Soul or Mind.
I did the questline. There’s a difference between memories being jumbled (as Uther’s were) and being lost (which neither Uther nor Sylvanas have demonstrated yet), and our discussion was about memories being lost.
I’m not sure how pragmatic they are. While there is some ruthlessness, there’s also some bonding between them, a desire for cultural identity, grief over being disowned by living relatives. There is also some cruelty for the sake of cruelty. You also spoke quite a bit about emotions in regards to the Forsaken beforehand.
I’m gonna look into that. I’m still campaigning with them.
Jumbled or Loss…same thing to me. He can’t remember exactly.
If Uther can’t connect his memories they are effectively loss.
If I mentioned emotions it was an after thought to pragmatism. My apologies.
If you think I need to clarify or change some wording so my points doesn’t get distorted please let me know.
It comes from the Revendreth Questline during the Shadowlands Leveling Experience not during the Covenant Campaign:
Temel says: I name Inquisitor Stelia her true name… ZILL’KEE THE WORLD REAPER!
Temel says: Who created suffering in order to study it.
Temel says: Who documented suffering without attempting to stop it.
Temel says: Who treated others as expendable.
Temel says: Who understood death, but did not appreciate it.
Temel says: Who wiped out entire worlds.
Temel says: Whose finest virtue was unintended.
The last one shows that the World Reaper had no virtues whatsoever and was sent to Revendreth by the Arbiter solely by her actions having a beneficial side effect.
The precedence for memory lose is from the runecarver/primus. Zovaal took his memories and we find them for him. And get legendary gear 
As Yvenathilm has pointed out, the Arbiter wasn’t actually the Arbiter. So the question to me starts at whether the other Eternal Ones inserted their biases into the creation of the Arbiter. Odds are they did.
Also undead generally get stuck; in Bastion there’s a Conductor quest that ostensibly is training Kyrian Bearers. It has you leaving undead behind and not carrying them to Oribos. Inserting what is a judgement before the Arbiter really neutralizes the Arbiter as a final judgement.
Don’t forget in there that he had been dragged off to the Maw to be sacrificed, and we saved him from that. That’s not a minor modifier.
I’ll point out, that the narrow case I mentioned before can fit in Uther and his hesitating on Compassion initially (Kleia prodded when he stopped). Then compassion is built out to the main point for the final memory. Uther’s compassion was then pushed again with his apologizing to Nikolon.
I kinda think we’re hanging up on the real world alzheimer’s type memory loss.
I don’t think that’s the applicable “feeling” for what would happen in a scenario like this. The person wouldn’t know something was missing.
The Kyrian can see when a Soul is destined to go to the Shadowlands. The trial of judging which Souls pass to the Shadowlands is for Kyrian so Maw Walkers partaking of the Trial are just guessing from what the person is saying.
The moment when Souls are destined for the Shadowlands is probably decided by the Loom of Fate in Torghast. The Fatescribe in Oribos can alter the Fate of those with great power especially those with where Fate constantly shifts around them.
In otherwords Zovaal is deciding when the Kyrian bring Souls to the Shadowlands rather then allowing them to resurrect again and again eternally.
The Eternal Ones failed to account for Zovaal having access to the Loom of Fate and continued to let the Kyrian bring Souls to the Shadowlands despite the Fate they see being nothing more than the Decree of Zovaal which is not the Purpose of the First Ones.
All the Eternal Ones did was have an unfeeling Automated Machine hack the second half of the Machine of Death while leaving the first half(Fate of Souls) in the hands of the Machine of Death’s owner Zovaal.
It’s fine, so far I don’t think there’s any wording of yours that needs to be clarified.
Uther’s memories were jumbled and we un-jumble them. But here’s the problem; Sylvanas shows no sign of memory loss. She even remembers trivial details from her life and things that would clash with the Jailer’s goals.
Just because Zovaal can alter memories doesn’t mean he did it to Sylvanas to get her allegiance. Note how Zovaal still kept the Primus chained up after turning him into the Runecarver, and how the Runecarver/Primus still fought the Jailer despite losing so many of his memories. At this point any claims of Sylvanas memory loss are only fan theories and fanon regardless of precedent.
Not to mention, Sylvanas’ trauma button is what Arthas did to her. All it takes to set her off is bringing it up, like with Delaryn and Anduin. The Jailer has runes just like Frostmourne’s all over his skin, Sylvanas could not have missed that!
This has convinced me that, by the metrics of the setting, that Sylvanas is not irredeemable. Having said that, I’d say she needs to actively make atonement for her crimes or be subject to Revendreth… in any case, not become the new Arbiter.
It’s possible that Sylvanas both lacks the emotional range to consider her actions AND chooses to act in extreem pragmatism. You both can be right. At least that’s how I’ve always seen her character.
Even if she does have her full emotional range she has been shown to value pragmatism even at the expense of lives ie; when she sacrificed 12 Farstrider lives to evacuate more civilians in Arthas’s attack.
It’s hard to say if her pragmatism is the result of her losing her emotional range or if it’s the one thing she leans into because it’s familiar. What is true though is without her warmer emotions her pragmatism has become colder but not as cold as being heartless. Even without emotions she still cared enough about the future children of the Horde being lost to war as reason to be pragmatic about the 4th war. I don’t think her emotions are that stunted by her soul split. She just lacks empathy or mercy for her enemies, where in the past, she would have never even considered using underhanded tactics. At most she lost her moral code.
Uther memories weren’t jumbled until they were. In other words they weren’t jumbled until cdev says they were jumbled, if that makes sense.
Sylvanas isn’t gonna show signs until she show signs. The lack of Sylvanas not liking ice cream doesn’t mean that she doesn’t like ice cream. Until cdev says she doesn’t like ice cream, its up in the air.
We are all here speculating are we not? I thought Story Forum was a safe place to speculate? There’s 1 or 2 posters on the story forums that has an issue with admitting whey they are speculating, everyone else don’t have a problem with admitting speculation.
I view her as second in command of the Maw, runes on his body are one of a million things that could have triggered her “hold up, wait a minute” moment. Yet we are sitting her with nothing.
And as we’re having this discussion I’m realizing that the writers don’t have many outs to tell that story. Did Sylvanas forgive Arthas/Scourge/KT/Ner’zhul/Zovaal in her quest to unmake reality(derp), or did he strip her of certain memories connecting her to him?
If she was forcibly drugged, as you put it, and then did bad things because of the drugs forced in her body what exactly will she be atoning for now that she is sober? I don’t think blaming the victim will be a good look, considering the current real life situation.
Its gonna be weird when RG Sylvanas agrees with everything they are saying off the rip. The Accuser looking around like “why is she here?”
I think the best out is for the writers to put less blame on Sylvanas as possible, and more on Zovaal. Unless they plan to go the route of “Soul Splitting/Necromancy” really isn’t that bad on the victims. I can actually feel a facepalm brewing just thinking about the hamfistiness lol
Or we both can be wrong, cdev gave themselves too much wiggle room and I think that’s part of the reason the story is coming off as convoluted and all over the place.
I love this scene so much. The Farstriders knew they were going to die, Sylvanas knew they were gonna die and they all knew what needed to be done if they had any chance at defeating Arthas. This was wonderful story telling, and really captured RG Sylvanas leadership and determination.
For me, this quest was a mistake for the story. Since it was contextual judgement calls it went into the Arbiter’s territory in the story.
This fits Baalsamael’s theory of the Maw being created by the first ones just for Zovaal. Then the Arbiter and the Attendants being made from his anima. In that concept the Fatescribe would be Zovaal’s own power.
I agree with this as most likely in the story.
It should be noted that if it is so, and the original Shadowlands had no Maw to start with; Sylvanas couldn’t have been condemned to the Maw in the original order of the Shadowlands.
Not a good look for the Kyrian! “Zovaal got us to keep his use of necromancy in the mortal universe a secret by not carrying undead to the after life.”
(Or does the story go to the Primus and Maldraxxus being responsible…)
I’d assume they assumed that the Maw was inescapable, and that they had drained his direct power for that into making the Fatescribe. Therefore his having the device wasn’t important, or it’s something else he stole.
That’s actually not a problem. But it hasn’t been connected for the audience, which is a writing problem. There’s no special art needed:
The Primus admitted to carving those runes himself.
It’s a case where the truth was a viable weapon for Zovaal to ply Sylvanas with. They made the Maw into a prison, or entirely made the Maw, just for Zovaal and then chained him there. The necromancy and Domination came from the Primus in Maldraxxus. The power to keep the Maw sealed came from the Heart of the Forest.
The Eternal Ones made the foundation for Zovaal to point right back to them. All of what she saw could easily be blamed on them.
The Sylvanas Character I see, that makes sense to me:
Experienced, realist. Competent battlefield leader with good vision into enemy goals and understanding of enemy objectives. Necessary willingness to undertake actions to counter the enemy.
Internal Character: Tragic. Defender of her people faced with the impossible. Then robbed of at least trying to rest in death by enemy malice, and now, the wars of the gods toying with the mortal pawn they see her as.
That’s not to say they’ve carried that character throughout the story. But it is what I personally feel is there, and what my notes would probably have for it.
In the story now, it isn’t debatable that something was taken from her and kept away from her by the Jailer. I’d say he felt that returning it would hurt her somehow. I don’t see how some modification didn’t happen if a piece was missing; that leaves me with my existing view, certain memories which connect to make concepts work. The concept isn’t gone, just the meaning of it in practice.
Which, as I’ve said before, I think is required to make undead even work; leave the person whole and they’re not going to attack the living.
Optimally, they wouldn’t have overwrought the character in the past with things that came across as evil to so many people. As it is, I’m not sure they’ll get the grounds in for everyone to take where they go willingly.
This would be a lot better if they had a scene of Sylvanas getting drawn into the Jailer’s plot through his lies and view of the other Eternal Ones. (Or something similar.)
They’ve used an open style of writing that doesn’t fill everything out. Then you can come back later and use holes that are naturally there. It also saves time in a constrained environment, gets something out faster…usually.
I do think they need to get away from it due to the age of the game, after this many years, having things appear from data voids gets to just feeling weird for the audience.
I hope they remember their character, and bring it out. They have a good spot for her right now…if they fill it out…
The Sylvanas Character I see, that makes sense to me:
Experienced, realist. Competent battlefield leader with good vision into enemy goals and understanding of enemy objectives. Necessary willingness to undertake actions to counter the enemy.
[/quote]
This is what most people like about her character. Myself included.
Writing be damed, that’s exactly how she should be seen. Bad writing has left too many gaps for her critics to fill with bad headcanons on why her story has diverged from this status quo.
(Edit: I’ll fix the incomplete quote above later. Viewing this forum on mobile sucks)
Zovaal was literally chained up so they didn’t think that he would master Domination Magic and have his Mawsworn start messing with the Loom of Fate. They thought Souls having the Mark of Readiness was another force of Destiny making the decisions and not Zovaal ordering his Mawsworn to apply the mark to other Souls.
They thought that simply keeping Zovaal bound would prevent him from tampering with Fate little realizing that leaving the Loom in the same Death Realm as him and his minions was just begging for trouble.
They didn’t even notice something was wrong as they were oblivious to the fact that Souls probably weren’t even intended for the Shadowlands in the first place! The Archon ignored the signs of the Maw having access to the Mortal Realm so of course she would ignore the constant marking of Souls to be shipped to the Shadowlands! She rarely ever thinks for herself!
The Maw would simply be the most inescapable part of the Shadowlands requiring Renathal’s Medallion of Dominion and knowledge of the First Ones held in the Sepulcher of Knowledge(that Denathrius is clearly oblivious of since Kel’Thuzad needed to retrieve it) to make escapable.
All the Eternal Ones would need to do is chain up Zovaal within his Tower and throw the Tower into the most inescapable(until Kel’Thuzad made it escapable) part of the Shadowlands.
They would not consider that Zovaal would learn to master Domination to control his Domination bound minions neither would the Archon see the signs that said Minions are the reason Souls are going to the Shadowlands in the first place nor that the Nathrezim would hand Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination to the Legion.
Fingers crossed!
I agree, there’s a point when her story gets too vague. “Her true motivations or true character are too vague” Cdev: Hold my beer.
Enter Zovaal who Sylvanas totally didn’t serve, the same Zovaal that:
And then he became BFFs with Sylvanas.
It’s entirely possible that bad writing sprang unconsciously from a certain former dev, it’s very common for a writers issues to show up in a character. Good ones minimize it with character background and dig out the rest in editing.
It’s always a problem for someone doing writing to remove themselves, if they have a real issue they’re not going to do so.
I don’t think there’s enough connection there. They really seemed ignorant of the Mawsworn when we got to the Shadowlands.
We first get to the Loom with the Fatescribe of Korthia having been kidnapped, so I don’t know they have put the connections there for it being used before.
She is a strange leader! And has not been a sympathetic character to me.
Is this in the Maldraxxus campaign?
I still think the Maw being made as a prison makes the most sense.
To understand what’s going on in their interaction, we really have to get internal dialog. Thus my invocation of Hamlet in another thread.
You need that turn aside and say something to the audience, so they get what’s going on; where this is coming from.
For me, jumping from “who’s this character” makes a lot of things fit a certain pattern. But that doesn’t mean they actually go there with the story.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Tithelord_(quest)#Notes
Baroness Draka says: Kel’Thuzad’s manipulations have plunged Maldraxxus into chaos. What will your covenant’s medallion allow him to do?
Prince Renathal says: He could levy an army of unwilling denizens of Revendreth. With enough anima he might even be able to manipulate the very fabric of the Shadowlands.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Hall_of_Tomes
Balmedar says: “Winged Arcanum”. An obvious choice for research on kyrian mysticism.
Balmedar says: What could he expect to find in such a basic volume?
Balmedar says: “Paths of the First Ones”? An odd choice, filled with speculation and half-truths.
Balmedar says: Does his ritual somehow involve the pathways connecting the realms of Death?
Balmedar says: “Greater Wards and Barriers, Volume IV: Counter-Spells”. A truly ponderous read.
Balmedar says: What manner of barrier is the baron seeking to erect… or bypass? Curious.
Balmedar says: “Binding of the Banished One”? Why, this is little more than a history book.
Balmedar says: What could Kel’Thuzad possibly want with this?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Designed_to_Fail
The pieces are all coming together. The kyrian, the Paths of the First Ones, and runes of domination?
Kel’Thuzad is looking to breach the Maw!
We cannot allow this to happen! The Maw has been locked away from the Shadowlands for good reason. Opening that floodgate could be catastrophic!
The baron is too powerful to confront headlong, so we will stop his ritual instead. Return to him with his reagents. I have made some “modifications” that should provide a calamitous end to his scheme.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Caught_in_the_Act
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Traitor_Unmasked
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Third_Fall_of_Kel%27Thuzad
While the ritual is disrupted he eventually usurps Sin’dane and from the looks of things preforms the ritual unimpeded offscreen allowing him to summon a Mawsworn to fight us as well as allowing the Mawsworn to bring him to the Maw in turn.
It was definitely thought inescapable up until it wasn’t. They were sloppy in handling what was supposed to be a prison. And their contempt and ego is no small part of what happened.
That’s not putting the Maw into the time before Zovaal’s banishment. (Which we really don’t have enough information about.)
Baalsamael’s thinking still fits for me, there wasn’t an eternal condemnation Maw, until they banished Zovaal to what they made into the Maw. That doesn’t change your other points, it’s kinda going back further in time.
Would that certain former dev have the initials A.A.?
I’ve seen writer issues and things that look like issues crop up in the writing, even aside from some of the shout-outs. For example, I think Metzen put a lot of himself into Thrall. Then there’s a few of Richard Knaak’s protagonists (Krasus, Rhonin and Jarod), who are also linked to some of WoW’s prominent ladies (to be fair, Alexstraza is one of his characters too). And don’t get me started on Illidan (all I will say is that Illidan killing Xe’ra cinematic looks like a writer venting their mommy issues and/or issues with Sunday school).
As for Sylvanas, I think they’re going to be bringing all this into the book that’s being released in November. While explaining story elements in a separate medium might make sense for profit-driven marketing, it’s a terrible idea for the sake of story - imagine if you needed to read other books and watch animated series to understand the motivations of the main characters in The Lord of the Rings, the Elric Saga or Discworld.
Yes. The original character of Sylvanas would be an irritant to an abusive male. They’d have a fascination with it which would, in practice, be to tear it down; only rarely would they themselves consciously understand what they’re doing.
EDIT: To be absolutely clear, the above is about writers only.
IIRC Thrall happened in reverse. They had a story session where Metzen did the character on his own; so yeah everyone then wrote the character around what came out of there. I think I remember a heavily censored audio of the session being around at one point.
I think the Sylvanas book has been delayed to early next year.
I’ve been complaining for years that they needed their story in the game, not books outside. Optimally, I’d like them to make a new quest tracking system, rename it to maybe “Journal”, and make sure that their Lore and Stories go in it and fill out what’s happening in the game.