Well, yes, I’m aware of that.
But I think Sylvanas, Vereesa, Alleria, Valeera Sanguinar , a resurrected Prince Kael’thas (maybe Kael’thas had a son/daughter that could carry on the Sunstrider dynasty) would make for an interesting storyline
1 Like
kaelthas died after attacking quelthalas and using the sunwell as a portal to kiljaeden that no one will ever forgive him. Suppose Sylvanas is alive she was a forsaken leader maybe she can be an ally to defeat the jailer but not a leader of any race after what she did. she will be worth she is a rogue maybe she could be the leader of the rogue faction of quelthalas who are pathstalkers. the others are characters of the alliance.
the logical development of the story would be that lor’themar and thalyssra get married and we have quelthalas-suramar commonwealth or united kingdom of quelthalas-suramar
Yup, from my understanding the Blood Elves hate Kael’thas.
Ranger General Sylvanas is your hero’s hero. Did you notice the first thing she does when her soul is fully restored is try to warn us about Zovaal?
I think it will be less whitewashing and more attempting to atone for the things she did as a result of having her soul chewed up and spit out by Zovaal. I’m completely okay with having her around for another 15+ years. I’m pretty much sick of the OG characters dying ie Vol’jin, Carine, Saurfang, Blightcaller etc etc, these OG characters are monumental and hard to replace.
I think out of all the exciting moments I’m about to experience no mustache twirl is at the forefront. Secondly, RG Sylvanas interactions are about to give me my whole dang life back! Thirdly, I can’t wait to find out exactly what’s going on with her fully restored version. I think we’re about to get full cooperation and a full disclose from and about Sylvanas.
Sylvanas and the Forsaken have always been a victims.
You have literally a Kingdom full of citizens go from pious light worshippers who love baking pies and playing with puppies, going to baking puppies and nonchalantly killing family and friends.
Trauma is nothing compared to the Curse of Undeath/necromancy.
1 Like
Let’s not forget that once the Helm of Domination was destroyed the Knights of the Ebon Blade noticed a notable sense of Freedom and when Arthas usurped Ner’zhul before then Sylvanas sensed the change herself.
They were still connected to the Helm of Domination even when Illidan damaged the link.
Domination Magic was effecting the Forsaken since they first became Undead! Bolvar taking over marked the beginning of Forsaken becoming like normal people as there were no Supervillains using Domination upon them through a damaged link.
It is no wonder that Before the Storm depicted the Forsaken as being ordinary people as they had minimal influence from the Lich King. Sylvanas alas had Darkness fill the hole where her Soul Fragment was and thus didn’t regain any morals but continued to plunge deeper into malevolence which led to her siding with Zovaal.
1 Like
At this point, you’ve put out more sensible lore than the developers.
What evidence is there of jumbled memories? What evidence is there for a lack of morality? Sylvanas demonstrates an understanding of morality, she just chooses to reject it. Also, Sylvanas even remembers things that are irrelevant to - and that clash with - the Jailer’s plans. Prime examples are seen when she interacts with her sisters.
Talk of Zovaal and Arthas’ twisting the soul isn’t necessarily a valid excuse. There are many people made undead by Arthas and the Scourge, Sylvanas isn’t the only one, so her suffering shouldn’t get special status. Death Knights also had their souls twisted by Lich King Arthas, to the point of literally having a hunger to cause pain in other living beings that makes them go insane if it’s denied… and were also forced to kill a loved one. But the Ebon Blade didn’t fall into lockstep behind the Jailer or go on a nihilistic rampage to destroy the cosmos like Sylvanas.
The problem with this is all this a fictional story made by writers. I think the only reasons they’re not just saying “Sylvanas is good and innocent” is because that contradicts so much the story and a lot of fans won’t swallow that claim or the retcons they shoehorn in to try and justify it BECAUSE THEY’RE RETCONS. Like I say, if you have to go back and rewrite the story after it’s published, you’ve done something wrong.
How are we forced to accept them? I say the writing is going downhill because several of the writers either lack still, are playing favorites or are putting personal agendas before good storytelling. I reject their attempts to whitewash Sylvanas, especially when it involves going back and changing the story - that’s comparable to cheating at a game.
1 Like
Like it or not whatever blizzard says is the ‘lore’ of the game no matter how stupid.
This is what put Sylvanas in service to the jailor in the first place, someone whom according to her background she ought to have been at odds with.
2 Likes
There’s the Uther precedence and the fact that when she look back at her time as the heroic Ranger General she remembers a fool.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that memory manipulation is a factor I’m saying that cdev can explain away how Sylvanas memory was affected by pointing at these two instances and saying “SEE!”
Once her soul was split and trampled on she immediately began acting as if she lacked morality, even after she was freed from the Lich King.
In any case if she lacks emotions as you say she is already baseline screwed in making decisions. I’ll elaborate later; I’m running out of time.
There’s nothing in your mind that says “there’s something fundamentally different in 99.9% of undead than what we see in the KotEB/Leonid/Calla hmmm I wonder what it could be?”
Edit:
There are 2 or 3 references in-game about her lack of morality.
You’re both right at the same time.
The writers command the right to do what they will with the story. That’s part of being the writer. So people do need to “accept” where they went to follow the story.
But any given story consumer can refuse what was presented, and not “accept” it. Ultimately, an audience member may check out, or even escalate to judging the writer(s) based on the work and their view of it.
For where they seem headed with this story, they really needed more development so minds were open to the shift. As it is, “nuance”, if that was the goal, was nuked from orbit.
Personally, I’m suspicious that they had the arc of “restoring” both cities in mind to begin with. But in reality they couldn’t deliver the story in a reasonable time. And thus if they get to it…it will feel really weird.
They definitely have the story hooks. There’s plenty of grounds for where we are littered through the years. Many more people would have come along for the story ride, willingly, if those had been brought up clearly and connected.
I’m fairly sure the Uther sequence was intended to lay the ground for Sylvanas. The first memory is two “jumbled” together. Though, for the audience at large they used a sympathetic in Uther, which won’t flow into the Sylvanas character smoothly. It’s much easier to take Uther’s self criticism of a lack of compassion; jumping to Sylvanas running similar concept lines would take a lot of work to deliver.
I think Thadeus has already acknowledged the possibility of them going the route discussed in this thread. But he does remain frustrated by the lack of foundation for that road. That’s not an unreasonable complaint. This story could be so much more, and saying a lot more, if it were given the room and development it deserves.
I disagree with this: the copyright possessor can’t cheat, they own it and can do what they want with it. Even mistakes, or things someone else doesn’t like.
EDIT: Since I have used the word cheat(ed) before I want to clarify: There’s cheating the audience of a conclusion to a scene, or of the pieces to make the story work. That’s not cheating in the context of a game.
1 Like
Scratch what I said about morality in game references even though I will provide you references that support my speculation.
I can understand his POV as well, but I have speculated that RG Sylvanas and the Banshee Queen aren’t exactly the same person for over a decade. It’s a very easy pill for me to swallow. I’ve been saying the same thing about the Forsaken for years.
I’ve always attributed it to the ill effects of the Curse of Undeath, which is still a thing and IMO it is something that is compiled onto the soul twisting Zovaal managed on Sylvanas.
I’m personally hoping that the RG version is effectively the same as the Banshee Queen minus the evil Saturday morning cartoon mustache twirling. I’m so happy to finally get this storyline. A person that is forcibly violated and cursed, turned into a shadow of their true self is restored and seeks justice from her violator.
Edit:
My opinion about morality:
Bottom line up front - their moral compass has gone haywire.
I think that Sylvanas and the Forsaken(general pop) lack morality, and on the rare occasion that it’s shown its either a glimpse, or not intended. One of the defining qualities that seem to get pushed around the most when talking about Sylvanas and Forsaken is pragmatism. I don’t think of run of the mill pragmatism when I think of them, I think extreme pragmatism.
How does one go from being well respected pious light worshipping citizens to creating plagues and stitching together random body parts for abominations without even a flinch or second thought? How does one go from defending an entire nation; to having no true compassion for their lives or the lives of anyone else? The Forsaken go from serving as loyal and outstanding citizens to immediately eating their living counter parts and leaving nothing behind but bones. I’m talking free of the Lich King whispers in all.
This my friends gives me pause.
To make a very very long story short, when I see Sylvanas and the Forsaken instantly and completely disregard morality and choose pragmatism I think something super natural happened to their moral compass. I’ve seen it described as trauma, which imo is only a part of what is happening to them but fundamentally I think its the side effects of necromancy and now soul splitting. Again how does an entire nation go from having a nice little picnic with family and friends to having a nice picnic eating their family and friends instantaneously? Were the former citizens of Lordaeron and Quel’thalas secretly evil while they were alive?
No amount of knitting will change my overall view of the Forsaken because I actually have completed their questing countless of times.
There are tons of instances were we see morality completely disregarded and abandoned for pragmatism. A few that stands out:
“Lets immediately eat our living comrades to make us a home, sure mmmkay”
“Lets immediately began torturing and experimenting on our living comrades so we can kill the Lich King and protect ourselves, sounds good”
“Killing my sister is completely okay, I’ll just resurrect her and we can live happily ever after, yayyy”
“Sure, I’ll go destroy crops and kill the people growing them because we need blighted ground for experiments, yup gotcha np at all.”
I can provide you with a lot of more examples if you like.
1 Like
Do we though? He’s hot but he’s kind of a sad potato.
For him being described as someone who is well suited to politics he kind of just stands around sighing all the time because he hates his job. It’s relatable but he could be replaced with a potato and no one would notice.
The coolest he’s ever been was The Isle of Thunder, but that was 10 years ago…
I think that’s where they think the story is.
Right now I can see them sending Sylvanas back to Azeroth at the end of this Xpac, still fits.
Gives a foil, even a motivator, if they continue the villain bat of Alleria; flip those roles for drama.
2 Likes
I can’t wait to hear the explanation for this; I’m literally sitting here like the willy wonka meme waiting.
- Did he manipulate the parts of her memory that connects her outcome to him?
- Did he sell her the best idea ever i.e. lets remake reality, doesn’t that sound wonderful?
- Remember EoN and her sole purpose in life was to avoid eternity in the Maw? Now she’s effectively 2nd in command of the Maw.
- Remember the deal with the Val’kyr? Does she have blockers on or what!
I remember making a thread trying to figure out if she had completely forgiven Arthas and the Scourge at this point.
Here, Voss in Stormsong Valley.
Lilian Voss says: Becoming Forsaken is an unpredictable process. Your body and mind are certain to change, but to what extent… it’s impossible to know. As is how well you will cope with the process.
Lilian Voss says: We all go a little mad when we become Forsaken. Some more than others.
Lilian Voss says: You’ll be shunned if you become one of us. You look in a mirror and all you’ll see is a monster.
Won’t say I remember the exact order but the concept is easy enough to find there.
1 Like
Basically luck of the draw.
Is there a potential for the Arbiter to get it wrong? We know for a fact that she can’t recognize a broken soul, we know that she is vulnerable which in my opinion makes her fallible so can she recognize the souls that didn’t get so lucky during their transformation to Forsaken and judge them appropriately?
What Uther precedence? He turned against the Forsworn and submitted himself to Kyrian justice before getting that piece of his soul back. I think that proves my point that Uther’s Shadowlands story arc was added for the sake of Sylvanas. Also, people can change to the point of despising their past selves without supernatural influence.
While I can see your point about how so many Forsaken changed drastically upon becoming undead, there’s still some who defied that. While it’s true that interaction the Light was a common factor in all of those cases you cited (I’d also add Alonsous to the list), note that the Ebon Blade don’t use the Light (plus the Light sent us DK’s packing with our tails between our legs after trying to make Tirion a Death Knight). On a side note, those examples of the Light being a positive influence on undead undermines the “Light bad” arc they tried to shoehorn in recently.
I don’t think I said Sylvanas lacks emotions. I did say that her emotions are dulled, there’s a difference. Can you give the those references about Sylvanas’ lack of morality?
I agree with this completely. Especially since evidence can be seen that this wasn’t developed given how we have the souls of all these important people - the other soul shards in the room where we get Uther’s and how Uther’s story is wrapped up in Bastion.
2 Likes
The precedence that shows someone who has had their soul split by Zovaal has also had jumbled memories. Did you do the questline?
IMO extreme pragmatism isn’t an emotion its a state of being. They totally disregard what’s right or wrong for the sake of getting the job done or for a desirable outcome. Whereas if they were still living they would totally regard it.
I’m sure no one here is saying that they all secretly chose extreme pragmatism over morality while they were living.
At this point my focus has been on raw unadulterated pragmatism; not emotions.
1 Like
She is an automaton created by the Eternal Ones to do their judging for them. They programmed her to be Non-Biased not realizing how circumstances effect people.
Zovaal was the original Arbiter so the Eternal Ones had no idea how the First Ones intended the Shadowlands be run(for all we know it wasn’t even intended to be an Afterlife but was turned into one so that Zovaal could get more Souls to judge instead of relying on Souls retrieved from Maldraxxus defending the Shadowlands) and programmed their Arbiter the best they could with the limited knowledge they had.
1 Like
I like were your head is at; something just ain’t right with the Arbiter. Maybe its the entired flawed system that really puts me off. Don’t get me wrong I love the story, and love that the Arbiter is a part of it, but I’m not feeling her.
She’s not as ridiculous as the Kyrian ferrying souls through her knowing they are dumping them in the Maw, but I’m starting to question her efficiency in omniscient.
1 Like