I don’t think that’s fair because someone sitting in the Shadowlands didn’t get the luck of the draw of being resurrected and getting a redo of their original judgement. No, I believe the place you were set on going the first time should be one and done.
Sally McMaw nasty don’t get a redo because she was resurrected and decided to knit as a Forsaken, no she needs to carry out her original sentence. I’m sure the Accuser would like to have a word or two with her, especially since the Forsaken can’t remember their time in the Shadowlands. At the same time Pious Forsaken Paul doesn’t come back and gets influenced by the Curse(or not) and ends up going from Ardenweld to the Maw on his second judgement.
I think what’s good for the geese is good for the gander. No second judgments its not fair, especially to those that don’t get lucky enough to get a redo on their judgement.
The problem isn’t undead not getting a second judgement, it’s Sylvanas who keeps doing worse and worse things between each judgement. She didn’t get judged when Arthas made her a banshee… but if she did after trying to end herself in WotLK, by that point she’d committed numerous war crimes in her fight against the Lich King… except they weren’t against him, but against innocents.
Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon.
Instead of this afterlife she deserved she was snatched back and had her soul manipulated by Zovaal, and further twisted by Arthas. Honestly I don’t know if you’re just being argumentative or you truly don’t understand the impact that Zovaal and Arthas has had on her soul even though cdev has laid it at your feet.
“But but she had free will…”, so did the abomination that is comprised of 10 different souls, who just wanna play soccer with your head.
I’m not defending the abomination comprised of 10 different souls either, your analogy failed. How did Sylvanas find herself in that “sea of comfort” when Arthas raised her as a banshee right as she died?
Check out the Warbringers cinematic, the campaign mission in Warcraft 3 and even the book “Rise of the Lich King”. Sylvanas’ soul never reached the afterlife during the battle for Silvermoon, it got sucked into Frostmourne with Arthas stabbing her then released as the first banshee. In light of that, the book “Edge of Night” makes no sense to claim she experienced that “sea of comfort” after falling in Silvermoon’s defense.
That quote you cite happened when Sylvanas tried to end her own unlife… which was also after she sanctioned numerous war crimes as the leader of the Forsaken.
Surely it doesn’t fail because you said so, that’s not how this works. The baseline of your argument has been “The Undead have free-will and make their own decisions and deserve a brand new judgement based on whatever their new deeds were as cursed/soul shattered individuals.” Abominations have free-will and just loves to play, all they want to do is use your head as a baseball and your legs as the bats. What kind of afterlife they deserve?
I suggest you read the quote again. It quite plainly says " The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon.
Read
Edit: Had she not been yanked back and twisted by Arthas and Zovaal; what afterlife would she have landed? I doubt it was the Maw or Revendreth. Unless you’re going the route of “Ranger General Sylvanas” was evil, what is your point?
Not all undead have free-will, and I don’t know whether or not the hypothetical abomination has free will or what Afterlife it earns (maybe Revendreth)… but Sylvanas does, and this thread is about her.
I brought them up to point out how “Edge of Night” doesn’t make sense and how the writers can’t seem to tell the story coherently. tbh Edge of Night seems like a writer fanboying over their favorite character, but Kosak was on the development team, so “inmates running the asylum” and all that.
In Warcraft 3 - long before “Edge of Night” was published - Sylvanas is seen being made a Banshee right after/as soon as she died.
In Sylvanas’ flashback from her Warbringers cinematic, made after “Edge of Night”, Sylvanas is also depicted as becoming a banshee immediately after/as she died.
Golden’s book “Rise of the Lich King” was published April 21st 2009, over six months before Patch 3.3.0 - the patch were we beat Lich King Arthas in the Icecrown raid - went live.
Edge of Night is contradicted by lore before and after its publication.
As for what Afterlife Sylvanas would’ve gotten if she’d never become undead and stated dead after Silvermoon… I couldn’t say, especially since the afterlife in the Warcraft setting has been retconned a lot since Warcraft 3 and Edge of Night.
I know who we’re talking about(sigh); its an analogy. Abominations have “free-will”
Abominations have had their memories twisted
I couldn’t imagine that people that were created in such as state being sent to a harsh afterlife because they made the wrong decisions based a necromancer changing their very being.
Its why I’m happy someone crushed the Arbiter like the cheap soda can it is.
Do you know how long it takes the Arbiter to judge a soul? From my understanding it takes her a fraction of a fraction amount of time to judge a soul.
Whether or not you believe that Ranger General Sylvanas(pre twisted/manipulated soul) was going to a good afterlife or not is mox nix. I believe it is folly to believe that she was anything but a hero, who died trying to protect her people up until the point her soul was twisted and manipulated by Arthas and Zovaal.
You believe that because she was forcibly drugged(using your analogy here) and wasn’t in her right state of mind that she deserve to be punished for the things she did while drugged. That is cray cray to me, and FYI I’m not here to change your mind. I’m really just trying to understand your POV.
I can 100% understand the people who say, I hate her because she’s a writer’s pet, I hate her because she the face of hurt caused to my favorite race, I hate her because her fans are smug, etc etc. I can even understand why the in-game universe would want her head on a platter, as they’re not privy to the soul twisted meta data that we have.
I cannot understand, she’s deserves some ill-fated afterlife/punishment, and I still don’t understand it after having this discussion with you.
Sylvanas Windrunner drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon. She belongs here. With each recollection, her memory of this place palls. The sound grows distant; the warmth, cooler. The vision takes on the pallor of a half-remembered dream. But with horrific clarity, the memory always ends the same: Sylvanas’s spirit is wrenched away. The pain is so intense it leaves her soul forever torn. The grinning face of Arthas Menethil, with his lopsided smile and dead eyes, leers at her as he pulls her back into the world. Violates her. His laughter—that hollow laugh—the memory of it makes her skin crawl!
She was sorted into a good afterlife for the split second after she died but her soul was split by Frostmourne and that’s the reason she ended up in the Maw. She was judged and possibly found worthy of Bastion. But it’s the act of the Jailer taking her soul and twisting it that condemned her to the Maw.
Evil Ranger-General Sylvanas doesn’t exist. She likely went to Bastion by the description. We have undeniable proof she went “to a good place” for her sacrifice.
Kyrian Sylvanas is a legitimate theory. There’s absolutely no evidence living Sylvanas deserved Revendreth or even the Maw.
Everything Sylvanas did after feels like double Jeopardy. She was already in Hell what could she possibly do to change that outcome? If not whatever the hell she’s currently doing.
This is a woman who didn’t deserve the afterlife she got and everything she has done since can be seen as revenge against the thing that stole her afterlife in the first place, and why people, like myself, find her insprirational.
Supporting your point is that: “time works differently in the Shadowlands” from the devs.
People took it to mean more time passes on Azeroth compared to the Shadowlands (timeskip). But I think the other direction is more likely.
Like The City on the Edge of Forever.
I fully expect us to end Shadowlands, jumping back to Azeroth, and everyone left behind tells us we just left.
Very technically, there is no evidence she was ever condemned to the Maw. The Nine carrying her there does not involve the Arbiter. (The Arbiter cannot be just and judge a soul based on someone else’s acting on it, the act judged must be of that soul.)
That’s exactly how time is presented in EoN, we don’t know how long between Sylvanas throwing herself off ICC and Garrosh’s attack on Gilneas but we can assume it was anywhere between one week to one month, but she wasn’t gone for long, her people are confused at why she was not at the battle, if she were missing for a long period of time they would know.
When Sylvanas was in the Maw in EoN she described it as possibly being years that passed, that could be chalked up to lack of time awareness though, but I think it was intentional. 5 years is the Time Uther spent in the Shadowlands prior to Arthas’s defeat and yet he too spent eons as an initiate Kyrian.
I think the only explination the devs gave to explain this is the Shadowlands exists ‘outside of time’ which could also mean that time is meaningless in the Shadowlands. Or time effectively stops the moment you enter the Shadowlands.
I’m kinda hoping its one of those unknown afterlives were she can be reunited with her kin and many of the people she tried to protect; welcoming her with out stretched arms, big golden smiles… Okay I’m laying it on kinda thick, but that would be awesome lol
How about the other way around? Veressa and Thralls kids are grown, and things are shaken up even more than Cata.
Me too, that’s what I originally thought as well. But her new cinematic dialogue where she says “we can’t even choose our afterlife” and she laments being made to serve again points to Bastion so that could just the writers way of retconning EoN to fit Bastion retroactively because when EoN was written they had no clear idea of the Shadowlands.
Or Sylvanas didn’t get sorted into any of the four and went straight to the happy Afterlife with her family like Durotan did.
That “made the wrong decisions based a necromancer changing their very being” doesn’t apply to all undead. So by your logic, all undead should by default get a good, comforting afterlife despite the atrocities the free-willed ones chose to do, even Putress?
In life, she was a hero (her worsts sin were pride and vanity, but she was still a hero). But so was Arthas before he took up Frostmourne… and he still deserved Revendreth at least after that.
A drunk person is still punished for crimes they commit while drunk - drugs don’t take away free will as much as you think. Same with undeath of Sylvanas’ kind. Sylvanas’ free will is clear;
“For some reason I no longer hear the Lich King’s voice in my head. My will is my own once again.”
“We were once the Lich King’s slaves. We existed only to slaughter in his name. And now… we are free.”
“I lived as a slave long enough, dreadlord. I won’t relinquish my freedom by shackling myself to you fools!”
" We will find our own path in this world, dreadlord… and slaughter anyone who stands in our way."
“I join you in celebration of this most revered of nights - the night we Forsaken broke the Scourge’s yoke of oppression!”
“We are NOT monsters! We are NOT the mindless wretches of a ghoul army!”
“Remember, , that Thas’dorah represents my family’s legacy… MY legacy. The deeds you perform while wielding it reflect upon me.”
Actual Sylvanas quotes. She’s clearly showing she has agency and free will.
Sylvanas is only claiming she’s not free now because she doesn’t get the afterlife she thinks she deserves and sweeps the many crimes she’s committed in undeath under the rug.
I don’t think all Sylvanas fans are smug (though we are on opposite sides, you are a reasonable one). Sylvanas is a writer’s pet, she is over-exposed in marketing and she has caused harm to a race I like.
After some reflection, I have considered that redemption can include people not being given what they deserve (both in game and in accordance with my real-life beliefs). So while I will not say Sylvanas is irredeemable anymore, a price must be paid for her crimes (and becoming Arbiter is not a price paid). I think the best outcome is Sylvanas sacrificing her existence to destroy the Jailer or spending a long time in Revendreth/WoW’s new purgatory equivalent.
I am not sure that using drunkenness or drug use as an analogy really works. In those cases, the person chooses to drink or take the drugs before committing the crime.
On the other, we do excuse people from criminal liability if they lack the mental capacity to appreciate that their actions are wrong.
We know that Sylvanas seemed to be on the way to a good afterlife when initially killed by Arthas.
We can strongly suspect that she wasn’t supposed to go to the Maw when she died in EoN because the Nine were working for the Jailer and were likely deceiving her.
What we don’t know is what the impact of undeath is on her mental state. Yes, she believed herself to have free will, but what was the impact of undeath on her state of mind and her capacity to understand right v. wrong? We just don’t know.
I am not a huge fan of this story approach, mostly because once more it cuts short in an unsatisfying way the resolution of the Alliance story - “Nobody is reponsible for Teldrassil! It’s Renewal time!”. But it is what it is.
Fair point, people may be excused from criminal liability for their crimes. On the other hand, they’re still incarcerated and expected to make restitution if the crime is serious enough. Blizzard plays fast and loose with morality where Sylvanas is concerned, but they haven’t shown her being effected by undeath and soul splitting that much.
Sylvanas clearly shows some understanding of right and wrong; she critiqued Garrosh’s mana-bombing of Theramore (good idea, bad timing), expressed affection towards Nathanos and understands morality enough to exploit it (manipulating the Desolate Council, trying to exploit the Proudmoore’s love of Derek so an undead Derek can murder them in their sleep).
This “soul-splitting stuff” is the latest in Blizzard trying to sweep the crimes of their necro-waifu under the rug, which also leaves a bad taste in the mouth due to what was revealed in the Blizzard sexual harassment lawsuit… and doubly so since some of the worst offenders in that lawsuit (such as Afrasiabi and Kosak) were directly in charge of Sylvanas’ story.
I though Sylvanas was Danuser’s necro-waifu. /s. That criticism seems to change to point to anyone who is writing to her or even likes her.
Kosak and Afrasabi sexualizing her didn’t have much effect on her story. There are still good moments all throughout this fanchise. What is problematic though is the re-victimization of Sylvanas through the Jailer.
That’s the timeskip idea, which I think they mostly shot down during Blizzconline. Asked about it, I think Ion said not to read too much into it.
So it appears mostly a story reasoning, not a gameplay thing.
Danuser is in charge now, but how long was he in charge of Sylvanas’ story? Correct me if I’m wrong, her story was in Afrasiabi’s and Kosak’s hands for much longer. I can understand that making her the Jailer’s victim also leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
P.S. I’m naming Kosak because I’ve seen a series of leaked texts between him and Afrasiabi on trying to find more women for a party in their infamous suite (the one with a photo of a certain African-American actor convicted of similar crimes on the wall).
A timeskip would be fun though. But i imagine that will likely be saved for a bronze dragon expansion where we go skipping through time on our way to defeat Morozond.
Which may be sooner rather than later if the Jailer succeeds.
It seems like WoW might line up the MCU when in comes to Timeway overarching plots.
I don’t agree with you using this as an anti-Sylvanas arguement. They are unrelated.
It’s a slippery slope to calling all Sylvanas fans bad people for supporting her dispite us being unaware this was going on behind the scenes. If anything Sylvanas and her fans are victims of this toxic culture too and it in no way proves her critics right about anything.
Dispite all of that Sylvanas was written mostly by Christie Golden who is not part of the allegations.