Your definition of body autonomy applies to something more like if i amputate or eviscerate someone, not killing them which is something completely different, from your argument i could say i just AMPUTATED your body from your soul so i negated your body autonomy, which to me it sounds like a ridiculous euphemism, to compare death with amputation… however you’re welcome to believe that.
its actually the contrary and why its so horrible IRL which scarce things stand above it on its malice.
Anyway its obvious we’re not going to see eye to eye on this one and i already said my piece.
Not the ones sent to the maw, which Sylvanas knew would happen to everyone she killed or caused to die. And she knew that because that was her goal after all, to send as many souls to the maw as possible to power up the jailer.
Ultimately, she killed all those people knowing that what awaited them was slavery and torment. That’s not different from what she did to Anduin. The only difference is that she personally enslaved Anduin. That line that she crossed may as well have been nonexistant in light of what she has already done.
Don’t the souls you find in Torghast all still have free will? They thank you, and the like.
You can say “Oh they’re enslaved, that’s still violating their freedom” and yes you are absolutely right and that’s horrible.
But if the question is “What is different about Anduin from the perspective of Sylvanas?” it’s not hard to imagine that someone can draw a moral line in their heads between violating someones physical autonomy and violating their mental autonomy, especially someone who has had the latter done to them personally.
You don’t necessarily have to like it or agree with it, but it’s not a wholly irrational stance for a character to have. This is ofc speculation based on one glance in a cutscene.
I think it is impacting her with Anduin because she knows him personally. This is something you see reflected in a lot of stories about RL war as well. As long as people are vague it is easy to destroy them. It is when you actually know them and have to do things face to face that things suddenly become real and very personal for you.
It does not help Anduin personally called her out on exactly what she was doing, no matter what she was trying to delude herself about. That is likely still going to rattle in her head every time she looks at him.
And in perpetual agony waiting to become smithing reagents, all the while shackled and unable to move. I guess they have “free will”, insofar they can even formulate a thought while in such extreme pain.
You could, yes. But it’s pretty stupid to think someone who would do the former, that is condone someone innocent to an existance of perpetual agony to the point of disinigration of the self, would in any way feel guilty about the later. You’re taking away their free will one way or another. It’s just that one involves putting the target under so much pain and torment that they lose all sense of self. That’s a far worse way to go than Anduin got.
Well as frustrating as it is that we don’t know Sylvanas’ motives yet, it also means we don’t know if she actually intends them to be in eternal torment or not. For all we know she wants to blow up the system and free everyone.
And yeah, it’s not a viewpoint I would necessarily endorse. But I don’t mind if Sylvanas’ perspective is wrong or unreasonable or founded on emotion, as long as I can understand how she got there in her head.
Well she is in for quite a shock then when she realizes what happened to everyone she had killed.
I actaully agree with this. I want to know why she has done all of this. The endless pain and suffering. I want to know what she thinks would be worth it.
On one condition. She doesn’t get to be right, or be redeemed. Doesn’t matter how much she regrets the suffering she has caused, or the lives she has taken. Because of her actions, her end result should be complete defeat, and an afterlife of perpetual torment. Let her believe it was for a good cause all she wants, as long as she gets what she deserves.
Infinite punishment for finite crimes cannot ever be truly deserved. Based on the standards set up for us in-game, Sylvanas would go to Revendreth for an admittedly very long time.
You can say that because people are in The Maw forever, then her crimes are infinite, but most of her dialogue in SL so far indicates she desires some sort of complete Shadowlands system overhaul which probably includes The Maw.
I will agree with you on this, even if i dislike it they have hammered it several times that there are pretty horrible individuals in revendreth and what she made doesnt even compare to those guys, even denathrius is being given a chance to atone.
It would if you willingly sent others to that same fate, which Sylvanas has done. If you are willing to do that to others, you deserve that same fate.
No one else have willingly sent souls to the maw, as far as we know. Because of that, she is a special exception. She may not have deserved the maw before, but she most certainly does now.
I could stretch it to this. A very, very long time in the maw, followed by an even longer stay in revandreth. And we’re not talking millenia either. Millions of years for the maw and even longer for Revandreth. Only that would be enough of a punishment for her.
Bellular mentioned in his lore video that she might be just now realizing that Arthas had less control over himself than she realized. That the Jailer is the true architect of her misery and suffering. He thought it was a bit of a plot hole that she didn’t realize it sooner and I am inclined to agree. Still, when people are blinded by their beliefs they can be easy to fool and manipulate.
If Sylvanas is being sent to Revendreth though, I vote Arthas to also be sent there. Alongside her. Not as a dominant, but as an equal. Really sink it in for her.
it wont be narratively satisfying if she ends up in revendreth, unlike denathrius, that delicious irony of renathal repeating his one liner was totally worth all those dead souls.
Honestly though, I don’t really see justice through torture as a necessity- if Sylvanas does show remorse for all of her actions, I would be willing to see that justice achieved through service and atonement. But for a very long time.
The need to see justice done through horrible violence isn’t really sensible- especially when it doesn’t achieve the path of making the judged truly atone but instead be forced to do so. Oblivion is also a very easy path. There can be great punishments without violent torture, but I am not creative enough to think of one right now.
Denathrius, both deliberately by chucking people in himself, and indirectly by having his venthyr tap souls without giving them their due chance at redemption and damning them before their time. And he’s still being given a chance.
Also as was said, Uther too. Even if it was “just” one person.
Alright, I concede. Although Denathrius is enduring maw-like torment atm, and will continue to do so for a very, very, very long time, whilst Uther did it to one person, who was admittedly a sheitstain of a human being.
Sylvanas is on another level, atleast compared to Uther. And Denathrius certainly didn’t get “redemption”.
She feels bad because she did to Anduin what Arthas did to her.
It’d be a pretty good story beat, if it weren’t happening to someone who has done or ordered multiple significantly worse acts in the past and not shown the slightest remorse for them.
The idea isn’t bad in and of itself. Having a character realize that essentially they’re a hypocrite and are doing the thing done to them that defined their entire life negatively afterward.
SYLVANAS WINDRUNNER having this plot is incredibly stupid and laughable.
ESPECIALLY because she’s done way worse things than corrupting Anduin.
Sorry, I used to really like Anduin (And then BfA and Shadowlands happened) but even back when I really liked him, Sylvanas facilitating his corruption is not as bad as murdering thousands of innocent civilians in a giant fire.
