I mentioned that she attempted it on Derek.
And she seemed pretty gung ho about it.
Same as with Koltira
Or the big Valkyr
And the undead nelves.
And all those other dudes in cata
11 Likes
No one’s saying she wasn’t committed to the plan with Derek. I’m saying that Anduin is the first time she’s ever seen it through and seen herself what becomes of them.
And I’m not talking about intent, either. She obviously intended to do it several times.
What I’m saying is that Anduin is the first time she actually sees the scheme followed through because it’s the first time she hasn’t been interrupted.
I don’t know the point you’re making with the Night Elves.
1 Like
In cata, Garrosh straight up asked her “what is the difference between you and the Scourge?”
To which she answered “I serve the horde.”
Except that when she was using dark powers on the unwilling to throw them -as they had no idea what was going on nor could they refuse, kinda like with Anduin in that regard 
- at her enemies during Cata it wasnt even for the horde apparently so theres that.
3 Likes
An observation doesn’t become an attack just because you get defensive about it. And Teldrassil has nothing to do with free will, so it’s not relevant.
You’re basically asking “Why does Darion not want to raise Tirion when he’s fine with raising ghouls.” Except sort of in reverse. In that case, it’s because Darion respects Tirion personally, and doesn’t give a damn about other people, and so he selfishly draws a line there because he’s not a good person.
With Sylvanas - it’s similar. Anduin’s case cuts to her psyche in ways others did not, because of his appearance, and his words, and the specific and highly personal way it plays out.
2 Likes
Maybe a little post-traumatic stress followed by determination.
I think the whole “omg, they are making her feel guilty and forcing us to forgive her” reactions are a bit much.
I will actually go ahead and say that the plan with Derek- while Sylvanas was committed to it- was still not the same as domination. We don’t even really know exactly what happened there- Derek saw visions of the past that he assumed were lies, because Baine said they were.
Here Eyir herself suggests that Sylvanas might not even know what she is doing with the Soulcage. I don’t think Sylvanas knew it’s true power.
The darkshore quests go way out of the way to demonstrate that the NE aren’t being controlled…
Koltira won’t even talk about what happened to him.
Obvious sass.
Ultimately, Sylvanas has charmed, manipulated, and coerced, but not really done the domination thing before.
If Sylvanas HAS in fact, even done this to Anduin, maybe she is feeling a little bad about it. But, I don’t really see this “SadsorrySylvanas” that people are seeing.
I wasn’t just talking about Teldrassil, and all those civilians certainly didn’t have a choice about being burned alive and then sent to the maw to further Sylvanas’ goals. May they be for some greater good or not, she didn’t give anyone a choice there.
Same would go for all of those people that died in Sylvanas’ war, and there are more examples that don’t necessarily have to do with sending people to the maw, but also killing people against their will in Gilneas or Southshore. This whole free will thing doesn’t make sense since Sylvanas has never given anyone a choice before, and also never felt bad about it before Anduin.
Saying that killing people is the same thing as dominating someone’s mind because you’re removing their free will to be alive is…kind of an absurd series of logical leaps.
I guess everyone on Azeroth is mind controlling everyone all the time actually. So relatively I guess Sylvanas isn’t so bad?
1 Like
If that’s the metric for trampling on free will, then almost everyone on Azeroth is implicated.
No its not, its just that we value life differently irl than in azeroth, etherie’s conclusion is sound and not farfetched at all, killing is the ultimate violation to free will irl since its something that cant be undone.
On azeroth tho you got stuff like necromancy/possesion/mind control etc so its up in the air and i may agree with you but this is actually debatable.
i feel the intent of your post is to downplay the impact of death in that particular event they mentioned (teldrassil) instead of refuting ethriel because if that were the case you wouldve tackled it from a different angle.
Killing is bad mmkay?
Come on guys its not like you couldnt refute ethriel with a sound argument instead of trolling…
4 Likes
Being generous. Just about every time Sylvanas does stupid evil things, she’s not the one actually doing it. Derek? She’s no where around as he’s being turned into a Proudmoore bomb. Koltira? She’s no where around when he’s being reprogrammed. Freshly raised people on the battlefield? This get’s wonky but apparently they are given some sort of choice to come back or not, be it right away or later but even then more often than not, she’s not directly doing it.
Very easy to feel smug and not concerned when you are actually doing the dirty work yourself.
1 Like
i actualy agree with this.
The big problem with sylvanas’ characterization is the inconsistence, i believe THIS behaviour from the sylvanas that appeared on the war crimes novel, but since that novel till now sylvanas was full of mustache twirling moments and that’s it, imagine that, since WOD she was either missing or being incredibly evil and we never knew what the heck she was thinking on those times, so im supposed to believe this characterization from that old book (its from 2014) is the right one? NOW? after all these years without a reminder? you gotta be kidding me.
Yeah but ghosts exist so it’s really not that big a deal. I’m being glib, but seriously the spirits in the Shadowlands, however bad they may have it, have free will still. It’s not the same.
The intent of my post is to tell someone to stop trying to turn a thread into another Teldrassil thread, and stop using dishonest arguments and twisting words to try and justify it.
We’re talking about literal actual mind control here. Going “well technically all moves made against another person without their consent is a violation of free will and thus equivalent to mind control” is silly, don’t pretend otherwise.
Ghosts cant have offspring last time i saw.
They never mentioned teldrassil on that post, for all you know they couldve been talkin about anyone else she killed.
Also WRONG, OP mentioned free will not mind control, if we’re talking about mind control thats flour from another sack but op was specific.
Debatable, but that does not disprove what the other guy was saying about how this is the first time shes done this.
oh please. She was messing with his head to make him murder his own sister- who are you trying to convince here exactly
Entirely speculation on your part and we know shes been in cahoots with the Jailer since even before that
Yeah, only warped so much that its an 180 on how they behaved before. Potato = potatoe
Sylvanas implied it was some reeducation type deal and obviously he wont talk about it preserve his own dignity
Obvious deflection
She used dark powers to make someone do something they wouldnt normally do
Just like she just did with Anduin
1 Like
Oh, right, she meant the other time Sylvanas committed genocide that sent people to The Maw. Of course. It’s such a common occurrence that has definitely happened more than once (psssst, that’s literally the only time)
I feel like you don’t understand that we’re talking about Anduin, who is being mind controlled. It’s not a general conversation about the concept.
The best way to do this is to not talk to them
2 Likes
yeah i concede this however:
You feel wrong then
Topic is free will, their position:killing negates free will and shes done plenty, which then you went and ridiculed as if didint had anything to do because in fact you were trying to do something else which i will agree with katiera in this case.
Right, but it doesn’t actually, because free will and bodily autonomy are not the same thing. Killing you negates your bodily autonomy, it does not negate your free will. You remain in control of your mind and your choices. Your choices may be restrained by the situation you are in, but that is literally always true so who cares.
To say that killing someone removes their free will seems like a deliberately obtuse interpretation of the term. If something you say is only relevant on a semantic technicality (and even then its not), maybe reconsider if it’s a valuable input.
Its the beginning of the asspull redemption at the literal finale of her 20 year character arc that everyone knew Danuser would pull.
Why didn’t she feel guilt for all those other things she did in the past? Because they weren’t concluding her arc yet so they didn’t need to rush a redemption onto her.
Unless they want to try to logic that he looks somewhat similar to Arthas now that he’s a young human with white hair wielding a mournblade and THAT’S why she feels sad? Even though she NEVER pitied Arthas at any point ever, even after he died.