11/09/2018 02:44 PMPosted by
Sivil
...
I might be missing something, but, she did not have anything to do in the original story at the warthgate it was the professor guy and the dreadlord that tried to instill a rebellion.
I remember after the Wrathgate was a scenario where she was fighting with you. I cant remember the whole thing, but it was about breaking back into UC via the sewer entrance.
The Alliance break in via the sewer entrance, the Horde just go in through the front door. The Alliance kill Putress while the Horde kill Varimathras. The Alliance then goes to the thrown room, where they find the Horde (who just killed Varimathras), Varian orders the Alliance to attack, but Jaina mass teleports the entire Alliance out (her goal was still to make peace with the Horde at the time).
Sylv left herself room for plausible deniability. I mean, yes, it's the ROYAL Apothecary Society, yes they were developing the Blight on her orders, yes she had it tested on Alliance AND HORDE races (remember Tauren captives?).
Did she tell Putress to use it when he did? Possibly not. She probably only put it in the hands of someone she could count on to want to use it when the opportunity arose, to test its effectiveness.
The Kor'kron Legion had Undercity under occupation for how long afterwards? Sure, she had to get rid of Putress and Varmithras, but once they'd served their purpose, they were expendable - arrows in her quiver.
She certainly defied direct orders to command the use of Blight in Southshore and Gilneas.
And she blighted Lordaeron/Undercity before abandoning it as well.
It's been apparent that she has always condoned the creation of the Blight, with intent to use it. To that extent, whether or not she gave the order at Wrathgate is irrelevant. She created the circumstances that allowed it to happen.
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That Sylvanas was involved on the planning of the Wrathgate as always been up for speculation, so it getting confirmed really isn't that much of a shocker.
I mean if she hadn't been betrayed then it would have been very hard for her to wash her hands, so it's quite fortuitous Putress and Varimatrass betrayed her when they did.
Almost like she had planned it so. Almost as she had set them up to believe it was their plan. Almost as if she saw the opportunity in two underlings straying away to play them into executing a devastating plan that could not be traced back to her.
I don't think she would have cared, to be honest. All Sylvanas and Forasaken lore at that point basically points to the fact that while they were nominally in the Horde, the war in Northrend was personal. They were there for revenge, liberation, and nothing else. I don't think Sylvanas would have thought twice about gassing Horde troops if Arthas could have been taken out. This was Sylvanas in full "arrows in my quiver" mode, before the Val'kyr saved her after her suicide attempt. I don't think she would have felt the need to cover anything up at all if she had ordered that.
I mean, don't you think self preservation would have been enough reason for a cover up? If she had outright betrayed the Horde she would have been gone on an instant, why put herself in danger when her goal WASN'T reached? Like, contingencies, you never know how things will turn out.
Sure, if she would have been sure the Wrathgate would have suceded in killing Arthas maybe she would have just done it herself. But given that it failed, maybe she thought it could herself, so what would have been the point of pulling the mask off for what was definitely not a sure thing?
If it was something she was aware, she was covering all her bases. No need to get the rest of the horde against her if it failed, which it did, which made the whole coup thing work so well in her favor cause otherwise she would have lost any support in her quest to kill Arthas.
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I don't think she would have cared, to be honest. All Sylvanas and Forasaken lore at that point basically points to the fact that while they were nominally in the Horde, the war in Northrend was personal. They were there for revenge, liberation, and nothing else. I don't think Sylvanas would have thought twice about gassing Horde troops if Arthas could have been taken out. This was Sylvanas in full "arrows in my quiver" mode, before the Val'kyr saved her after her suicide attempt. I don't think she would have felt the need to cover anything up at all if she had ordered that.
I mean, don't you think self preservation would have been enough reason for a cover up? If she had outright betrayed the Horde she would have been gone on an instant, why put herself in danger when her goal WASN'T reached? Like, contingencies, you never know how things will turn out.
Sure, if she would have been sure the Wrathgate would have suceded in killing Arthas maybe she would have just done it herself. But given that it failed, maybe she thought it could herself, so what would have been the point of pulling the mask off for what was definitely not a sure thing?
If it was something she was aware, she was covering all her bases. No need to get the rest of the horde against her if it failed, which it did, which made the whole coup thing work so well in her favor cause otherwise she would have lost any support in her quest to kill Arthas.
If that was the case wouldn't it just have been simpler for her to say "their orders were to kill Arthas and Alliance, not Horde" and just publicly execute Putress? Rather than manipulating them like some comic book villain with a cunning plan into pulling some sort of coup (that almost succeeded?)
Yeah ok the difference between a comic book villain and a videogame villain is a little esoteric, but still, no need to go all Glenn Beck conspiracy theory on this. Simplest explanation is it went down exactly as described in WotLK.
Considering the events of Wrathgate involves pre-derailment Sylvanas... I have a hypothesis on her plan.
She orders Putress to Blight the battlefield if things seem to go south.
- If Arthas is killed during this: "Acceptable sacrifices".
- If Arthas escapes: "lol no, Varimathras did it".
The difference between Wrathgate and Undercity is that in the latter it's obvious Sylvanas ordered it.
11/09/2018 02:20 PMPosted by
Bipzi
https://www.eurogamer.net/amp/2018-11-08-world-of-warcraft-and-the-masterplan-for-sylvanas
"I'm excited about the feedback," WoW creative director Alex Afrasiabi told me at BlizzCon 2018. "I've heard these discussions on the internet about 'she's going off the rails', but is she? I've been writing Sylvanas personally since 2006, and this is pretty much - the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken - in character. Those were all under Sylvanas' orders. What we're seeing now is an escalation of the plans Sylvanas has, clearly, and we're in the middle of that."
I'm having a serious mind-blown moment here. I thought the Wrathgate incident was a mutiny within the Forsaken, orchestrated by Varimathras and Putress. This was Sylvanas's plan all along? Talk about your political maneuvering!
Anyone who was objective against the Forsaken pretty much knew this. How can anyone truly believe that Putress was working by his own ?
He was under direct order of Sylvanas. He did everything as her Queen ordered. Playing throughout the Forsaken zones you know you constantly try the new plague against the living(and the dead).
Forsaken not only hate the Scourge but also the living, these are all established facts back in Vanilla WOW.
11/10/2018 10:27 AMPosted by
Thera
Anyone who was objective against the Forsaken pretty much knew this. How can anyone truly believe that Putress was working by his own ?
He was under direct order of Sylvanas. He did everything as her Queen ordered. Playing throughout the Forsaken zones you know you constantly try the new plague against the living(and the dead).
Forsaken not only hate the Scourge but also the living, these are all established facts back in Vanilla WOW.
Well, one thing does not necessarily lead to another. Just because Sylvanas ordered Putress to make the new Blight, does not mean she ordered him to use it at the Wrathgate.
But now that there's Word of God on this issue, the case is closed.
11/10/2018 10:31 AMPosted by
Lemres
11/10/2018 10:27 AMPosted by
Thera
Anyone who was objective against the Forsaken pretty much knew this. How can anyone truly believe that Putress was working by his own ?
He was under direct order of Sylvanas. He did everything as her Queen ordered. Playing throughout the Forsaken zones you know you constantly try the new plague against the living(and the dead).
Forsaken not only hate the Scourge but also the living, these are all established facts back in Vanilla WOW.
Well, one thing does not necessarily lead to another. Just because Sylvanas ordered Putress to make the new Blight, does not mean she ordered him to use it at the Wrathgate.
But now that there's Word of God on this issue, the case is closed.
You are right but that also does not mean She DID NOT order him to use it at the Wrathgate.
After the Wrathgate event, this was discussed in detailed with people accepting that Sylvanas did not ordered the attack and other people who believed She did and She was ready to sacrifice some pawns to cover her tracks.
At the end, noone really knew what actually happened as there were no solid facts to suggest one way or another. Sylvanas always made sure to cover her tracks well.
Grasping at straws
Not Impressed.
I refuse to belive that Sylvannas is that dumb. Yeah sure i would belive that maybe sylvannas would do that if she was 100% BEYOND ANY DOUBT sure that this would kill arthas.
But to take such a gambit for a chance just to hurt Arthas is dumb. I mean the Wrathgate put the forsaken (and her) on serious risk. A lot of forsaken died fighting for and againts putress, the hate of alliance for the forsaken intensified and her position (and security) on the horde was at risk, it just not worth it.
Also a good way to ensure that Arthas dies is to NOT make the alliance and the horde fight each other......just saying is a dumb plan.
And since it seems so dumb and there was never any indication of this, im more willing to belive that the writter mispoke or misremembered things. ( belive it or not people make mistakes)
But some people with a raging hate !@#$% for sylvannas will latch onto this.
11/09/2018 02:20 PMPosted by
Bipzi
https://www.eurogamer.net/amp/2018-11-08-world-of-warcraft-and-the-masterplan-for-sylvanas
"I'm excited about the feedback," WoW creative director Alex Afrasiabi told me at BlizzCon 2018. "I've heard these discussions on the internet about 'she's going off the rails', but is she? I've been writing Sylvanas personally since 2006, and this is pretty much - the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken - in character. Those were all under Sylvanas' orders. What we're seeing now is an escalation of the plans Sylvanas has, clearly, and we're in the middle of that."
I'm having a serious mind-blown moment here. I thought the Wrathgate incident was a mutiny within the Forsaken, orchestrated by Varimathras and Putress. This was Sylvanas's plan all along? Talk about your political maneuvering!
Are people actually surprised by this? I've been saying for years that it makes no sense the Forsaken are allowed in the Horde after Wrathgate.
I refused to belive that Sylvannas is that dumb. Yeah sure i would belive that maybe sylvannas would do that if she was 100% BEYOND ANY DOUBT sure that this would kill arthas.
But to take such a gambit for a chance just to hurt Arthas is dumb. I mean the Wrathgate put the forsaken (and her) on serious risk. A lot of forsaken died fighting for and againts putress, the hate of alliance for the forsaken intensified and her position (and security) on the horde was at risk, it just not worth it.
And since it seems so dumb and there was never any indication of this, im more willing to belive that the writter mispoke or misremembered things. ( belive it or not people make mistakes)
But some people with a raging hate !@#$% for sylvannas will latch onto this.
This has nothing to do with hating Sylvanas or not. It seems you did not play back WOTLK days or did not participate in forum discussions because the community was split about this whole Wrathgate event.
Some people didn't buy Sylvanas being innocent on this. Obviously, some did but it has never been about hating Sylvanas or not, it was about story leading up to that moment and what Sylvanas capable of.
Also, it doesn't appear to be so DUMB as you put it because not only She has made the majority of the Horde believe in her but She came on top out of the whole deal.
11/10/2018 11:00 AMPosted by
Thera
Also, it doesn't appear to be so DUMB as you put it because not only She has made the majority of the Horde believe in her but She came on top out of the whole deal.
yeah by chance of jaina having still a soft spot for peace. Thats the only thing that stoped tha inminent bloodbath on the throne room. Thats a hell of a hail mary just to hurt Arthas. If anything that only delayed the Lich King at the cost of hurting the combined effort of both factions.
Is dumb because she accomplished very little and risked A LOT.
She's evil af, confirmed.
It makes sense. Sylvanas hates Arthas, wanted him gone. She probably hates Varimathras and wanted him gone. Had them pinned as the perpetrators and got (almost, Arthas for away) two birds with one stone (stone being one event). She didnât want horde or alliance soldiers to die - perhaps - but collateral damage is as collateral damage does.
Sneaky!
Edit to add: keep in mind this was also during the âquiverâ mentality. A loss of some elements of undercity may be easy price to pay for her ultimate justice: destruction of Arthas. She stood by on sidelines when Arthas wasnât killed by the blight, bided her time so she could get âundercity backâ and continue the fight against Arthas.
Think of what Arthas did in the name of justice? Killing mercenaries, leaving Muradin to die...undeath and corruption probably does a number on your morality as viewed from our perspective.
11/09/2018 05:46 PMPosted by
Midare
Unless she ordered them to do it. Which was implied by Varimathras. I had this pegged since Wrath
Oh yes, a Nathrezim is just the most reliable source for facts.
Honestly, I wish they'd checked their facts before they go feeding people's confimation biases.
Also, this is probably more likely. I imagine itâs easy to be inconsistent when dealing with decades of lore.
/shrug
11/09/2018 07:42 PMPosted by
Lorash
Of course, I assume you mean the Battle for the Undercity. Neither Thrall nor Sylvanas were at Wrathgate.
yeah. the undercity aftermath not the actual wrathgate part :P
11/10/2018 11:08 AMPosted by
Federok
11/10/2018 11:00 AMPosted by
Thera
Also, it doesn't appear to be so DUMB as you put it because not only She has made the majority of the Horde believe in her but She came on top out of the whole deal.
yeah by chance of jaina having still a soft spot for peace. Thats the only thing that stoped tha inminent bloodbath on the throne room. Thats a hell of a hail mary just to hurt Arthas. If anything that only delayed the Lich King at the cost of hurting the combined effort of both factions.
Is dumb because she accomplished very little and risked A LOT.
First of all, I dont think She actually expected that to happen. Faction leaders meeting up like that was pure coincidence.
Secondly, If Jaina was not there Alliance force have no chance to beat the Horde force right there and there. It will at worst end in tie.
Lastly, even if Jaina did not teleport them out of the Undercity, there is no guarantee that the Alliance could wipe the Horde there. Sylvanas also knows very well that Jaina has a sweet spot for Thrall(back than).
Personally, I don't think She risked much for what her goal was, to take revenge on Arthas at all cost. She came out scot free and established her "loyalty" to the Horde.
After everything we've seen, those who choose to side with Sylvanas should just get replaced with a Skeleton that can only do basic attacks by the end of their "defending the waifu" quest chain. The debuff (which is permanent and will persist through death) can be called "What did you expect?".