Sylvanas' Original Plan in the War of Thorns:
Step 1 - Fight through Ashenvale and Darkshore, eliminating any Alliance strongholds along the way.
Step 2 - Kill Malfurion and possibly Tyrande to demoralize the other Night Elves.
Step 3 - Use the demoralization of the Night Elves to make conquering Darnassus easier and not require its complete destruction.
Step 4 - Prevent the Alliance from transporting Azerite from Kalimdor to Stormwind by holding Darnassus hostage and avoiding unnecessary casualties on both sides in the process.
Sylvanas' Revised Plan in the War of Thorns:
Step 1 - Fight through Ashenvale and Darkshore, eliminating any Alliance strongholds along the way.
Step 2 - K̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶M̶a̶l̶f̶u̶r̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶y̶ ̶T̶y̶r̶a̶n̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶m̶o̶r̶a̶l̶i̶z̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶N̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶E̶l̶v̶e̶s̶.̶ Fail at killing either Malfurion or Tyrande because Saurfang doesn't realise that logical thinking can sometimes save more lives in the long run than "but muh honor."
Step 3 - U̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶m̶o̶r̶a̶l̶i̶z̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶N̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶E̶l̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶q̶u̶e̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶D̶a̶r̶n̶a̶s̶s̶u̶s̶ ̶e̶a̶s̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶q̶u̶i̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶p̶l̶e̶t̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶s̶t̶r̶u̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶ Burn the entirety of Darnassus to the ground because its the only remaining way to "win" the war that she could no longer pull out of.
Step 4 - Prevent the Alliance from transporting Azerite from Kalimdor to Stormwind, but in this version of events Teldrassil is almost completely destroyed and a sh!t ton of Night Elves die in the process, because Saurfang couldn't keep his honor in his pants for more than five seconds of rational thought.
TL;DR Saurfang is a complete moron who ruined everything due to having a brain the size of a walnut and probably caused way more people to die than those that would have if he'd just stuck to the plan.
Discuss.
I agree and disagree.
SAURFANG created the entire war plan, and he blew up his own plan by not killing the NE leaders. When there are 2 victory conditions, and the commander purposefully fails one of them, plans change.
Even knowing her "reasons", I don't feel like Sylv's actions were logical or pragmatic. I blame Blizz though, as they obviously wanted to force the "Horde is morally black in BFA!" and was going to find a way to do it one way or another.
SAURFANG created the entire war plan, and he blew up his own plan by not killing the NE leaders. When there are 2 victory conditions, and the commander purposefully fails one of them, plans change.
Even knowing her "reasons", I don't feel like Sylv's actions were logical or pragmatic. I blame Blizz though, as they obviously wanted to force the "Horde is morally black in BFA!" and was going to find a way to do it one way or another.
Everything you've written makes perfect sense, but the question that matters is: is this what Blizzard thinks happened?
Every time Sylvanas has come up since the War of Thorns, Blizzard has at some point mentioned "ulterior motives" and "not telling everything."
Every time Sylvanas has come up since the War of Thorns, Blizzard has at some point mentioned "ulterior motives" and "not telling everything."
11/06/2018 12:23 PMPosted by SolythnBlizzard has at some point mentioned "ulterior motives" and "not telling everything."
We know what she was probably thinking at the time. If the Alliance doesn't break here they will come to UC and I'll finish them there. Which she nearly did a few times.
11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by NincaroBurn the entirety of Darnassus to the ground because its the only remaining way to "win" the war that she could no longer pull out of.
I think you mean:
"burn Teldrassil to vindicate all of the Alliance hardliners and prove to the Alliance's general population that they will only be safe when the Horde and all of its people are exterminated."
Everybody loves a good extinction level race war right?
I think burning the tree would be better for the long run, as the horde would have to waste forces occupying it that could be sent to the front lines.
Also the Alliance would inevitably try to retake Teldrassil, both to liberate it and due to it being a strategic location, thus providing a large staging point right on the Hordes doorstep.
If there is anything I have learned while playing Civilization 5, unless you are confident you can hold them, always destroy enemy cities, because if the enemy retakes it, things are going to get difficult.
Also the Alliance would inevitably try to retake Teldrassil, both to liberate it and due to it being a strategic location, thus providing a large staging point right on the Hordes doorstep.
If there is anything I have learned while playing Civilization 5, unless you are confident you can hold them, always destroy enemy cities, because if the enemy retakes it, things are going to get difficult.
11/06/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Éamon11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by NincaroBurn the entirety of Darnassus to the ground because its the only remaining way to "win" the war that she could no longer pull out of.
I think you mean:
"burn Teldrassil to vindicate all of the Alliance hardliners and prove to the Alliance's general population that they will only be safe when the Horde and all of its people are exterminated."
Everybody loves a good extinction level race war right?
Exactly. Burning Teldrassil doesn't accomplish anything good for the Horde. Only means that the other side will fight twice as hard knowing that if they lose, they will all die anyway.
11/06/2018 12:22 PMPosted by HahahahahahaSAURFANG created the entire war plan, and he blew up his own plan by not killing the NE leaders. When there are 2 victory conditions, and the commander purposefully fails one of them, plans change.
True that he created the plan, but wrong that he planned to kill Malfurion.
In AGW, Saurfang clearly states that it doesn't matter who rules the Night Elves, capturing Darnassus honorably would force a political fracture amongst the Alliance they couldn't recover from.
If the Horde managed to kill both Tyrande and Malfurion, yes, it would be a great victory that would weaken the Alliance, but the objective was supposed to be conquering the World Tree. That wedge would split the Alliance no matter who ruled the night elves.
Even Sylvanas envisions a victory where both Malfurion and Tyrande survive.
The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”
Killing Malfurion wasn't a part of the plan. It's something Sylvanas tells the PC in game.
11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by NincaroBurn the entirety of Darnassus to the ground because its the only remaining way to "win" the war that she could no longer pull out of.
This is dumb.
The best course of action would be to occupy Darnassus and use it and its people as a hostage to negotiate with the Alliance from a place of power.
Y'know - the actual plan.
Even if occupying it permanently seemed impossible, the Horde could have robbed it and left without committing an act of genocide that only encouraged the Alliance to retaliate.
Sylvanas burned the Horde's only advantage in an otherwise 50/50 war. It was neither pragmatic nor honorable.
Oh I almost forgot:
Destroy the Azerite stockpiles in Darnassus instead of looting it for the Horde.
Fail to loot Darnassus at all for any of the potentially useful resources present in capital cities that could be used to defray the cost of the campaign.
Fail to address the Draenei port city next door that could just as easily be used for Alliance logistics.
Fail to take any useful political hostages that could be used for negotiating leverage.
Destroy the Azerite stockpiles in Darnassus instead of looting it for the Horde.
Fail to loot Darnassus at all for any of the potentially useful resources present in capital cities that could be used to defray the cost of the campaign.
Fail to address the Draenei port city next door that could just as easily be used for Alliance logistics.
Fail to take any useful political hostages that could be used for negotiating leverage.
Also, fail to notice that Azerite is literally sprouting up everywhere, and destroying one port only mildly inconveniences the Alliance's ability to collect it.
I fail to see how Malfurion living makes occupying the tree a non-option. Even if the Kaldorei were inspired, they were still subjected.11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Nincarobecause its the only remaining way to "win" the war that she could no longer pull out of
No, using Teldrassil as a bargaining chip would've been a much more effective move, even if Darnassus is reclaimed later on.
During that time you have a gun to a portion of the Alliance's citizenry, you can gather resources, prepare for a longer conflict, assuming you don't simply negotiate a deal with the Alliance, even if only a short term pact (you could still get very favorable terms with a capital city in your pocket).
What destroying the tree accomplishes is kick-starting the war Sylvanas instigates in Darkshore up to 11, trigger an immediate counter attack against Undercity that removes it from the board, and lead into a war that the Horde is currently losing as of 8.1.
During that time you have a gun to a portion of the Alliance's citizenry, you can gather resources, prepare for a longer conflict, assuming you don't simply negotiate a deal with the Alliance, even if only a short term pact (you could still get very favorable terms with a capital city in your pocket).
What destroying the tree accomplishes is kick-starting the war Sylvanas instigates in Darkshore up to 11, trigger an immediate counter attack against Undercity that removes it from the board, and lead into a war that the Horde is currently losing as of 8.1.
11/06/2018 12:29 PMPosted by ÉamonEverybody loves a good extinction level race war right?
"Yeah, uh, my name is Sylvanas Windrunner. I'm a Warchief, I have ten thousand undead kids, and, as you can see from my pointy ears and deathly pallor, I'm a member of this planet's top race!"
"Uh, don't focus too much on the last part, but I'm Anduin Wrynn. I'm a priest. And I'll be damned if that knife-eared floozy's race is superior! The normal-eared pinkskin people will rule this world!
/BfA
11/06/2018 01:22 PMPosted by RothironNo, using Teldrassil as a bargaining chip would've been a much more effective move, even if Darnassus is reclaimed later on.
During that time you have a gun to a portion of the Alliance's citizenry, you can gather resources, prepare for a longer conflict, assuming you don't simply negotiate a deal with the Alliance, even if only a short term pact (you could still get very favorable terms with a capital city in your pocket).
What destroying the tree accomplishes is kick-starting the war Sylvanas instigates in Darkshore up to 11, trigger an immediate counter attack against Undercity that removes it from the board, and lead into a war that the Horde is currently losing as of 8.1.
Frankly, if Sylvanas had captured the tree, Anduin orders Lordaeron assaulted anyway, and then she burns down the tree, that would make for a genuinely morally gray story, and would frame Anduin in a much harsher light while nonetheless marking Sylvanas as wholly willing to murder innocents in the course of war.
The problem is, that would be so off base from Anduin's character, it wouldn't even be in the same shooting range.11/06/2018 02:01 PMPosted by VozulFrankly, if Sylvanas had captured the tree, Anduin orders Lordaeron assaulted anyway, and then she burns down the tree, that would make for a genuinely morally gray story, and would frame Anduin in a much harsher light while nonetheless marking Sylvanas as wholly willing to murder innocents in the course of war.
11/06/2018 02:07 PMPosted by RothironThe problem is, that would be so off base from Anduin's character, it wouldn't even be in the same shooting range.11/06/2018 02:01 PMPosted by VozulFrankly, if Sylvanas had captured the tree, Anduin orders Lordaeron assaulted anyway, and then she burns down the tree, that would make for a genuinely morally gray story, and would frame Anduin in a much harsher light while nonetheless marking Sylvanas as wholly willing to murder innocents in the course of war.
Not out of range for Genn's character and he is constently in Anduin's ear. He could convince him to attack UC. Saying that doing so would cause them to pull people out of the tree to help in defending. Then they would go in to get the tree. However, that back fires when she burns the tree instead. And then in that way, the Night Elves would also be angry at Genn and Anduin, creating fractures in the Alliance.
Except that also would also be off-base for Genn's character. The guy who wouldn't raise an issue with the Night Elves getting their homeland back because of deep gratitude for the hospitality they showed him and his people is going to support an action that directly leads to Sylvanas burning them alive?11/06/2018 02:21 PMPosted by DarkloraxNot out of range for Genn's character and he is constently in Anduin's ear. He could convince him to attack UC. Saying that doing so would cause them to pull people out of the tree to help in defending. Then they would go in to get the tree. However, that back fires when she burns the tree instead. And then in that way, the Night Elves would also be angry at Genn and Anduin, creating fractures in the Alliance.
11/06/2018 02:36 PMPosted by RothironExcept that also would also be off-base for Genn's character. The guy who wouldn't raise an issue with the Night Elves getting their homeland back because of deep gratitude for the hospitality they showed him and his people is going to support an action that directly leads to Sylvanas burning them alive?11/06/2018 02:21 PMPosted by DarkloraxNot out of range for Genn's character and he is constently in Anduin's ear. He could convince him to attack UC. Saying that doing so would cause them to pull people out of the tree to help in defending. Then they would go in to get the tree. However, that back fires when she burns the tree instead. And then in that way, the Night Elves would also be angry at Genn and Anduin, creating fractures in the Alliance.
The questions is which does he listen to more? His hatred of Sylvanas and the Forsaken or his respect for the Night Elves? I feel he would be more interested in having an excuse to root them out of Lordaeron. Only later to realize that it wasn't the best plan.
Which would make Genn the biggest idiot if he doesn't immediately realize that Sylvanas would torch Teldrassil in response to such an attack.11/06/2018 02:50 PMPosted by DarkloraxThe questions is which does he listen to more? His hatred of Sylvanas and the Forsaken or his respect for the Night Elves? I feel he would be more interested in having an excuse to root them out of Lordaeron. Only later to realize that it wasn't the best plan.
As has been said, killing Malfurion was not a part of the original plan. It was something Sylvanas added to the plan after the war was underway that she never communicated to Saurfang.
In fact Sylvanas seemed annoyed at Nathanos for letting Saurfang know she was hunting Malfurion at all.
So there is a lot of blame to be rested at Sylvanas' feet as well. Saurfang wasn't just some grunt, he was her lead general and main prosecutor of the War of Thorns. It was absolutely vital that he be fully privy to her war goals.
That is also assuming killing Malfurion would have been the right move. I'm not too convinced. If we're looking at it from a realistic perspective killing Malfurion could have just as easily turned him into a night elven martyr, having the opposite effect Sylvanas was hoping for. At the same time it would almost definitely make the Cenarion Circle her enemy, an organization that has been neutral up to this point.
That in turn could cause a rift in the Horde. Baine already doesn't like Sylvanas and his closest adviser is Runetotem, who himself is a close friend and student of Malfurion's.
Malfurion is not just an Alliance hero. He's saved the planet multiple times from the Legion now, and is one of the most famous individuals on Azeroth for it. Killing him isn't a blow against just the Alliance, it's murdering a champion of Azeroth and setting yourself up as an enemy against life.
But then, maybe being an enemy of life is what Sylvanas really wanted all along.
In fact Sylvanas seemed annoyed at Nathanos for letting Saurfang know she was hunting Malfurion at all.
So there is a lot of blame to be rested at Sylvanas' feet as well. Saurfang wasn't just some grunt, he was her lead general and main prosecutor of the War of Thorns. It was absolutely vital that he be fully privy to her war goals.
That is also assuming killing Malfurion would have been the right move. I'm not too convinced. If we're looking at it from a realistic perspective killing Malfurion could have just as easily turned him into a night elven martyr, having the opposite effect Sylvanas was hoping for. At the same time it would almost definitely make the Cenarion Circle her enemy, an organization that has been neutral up to this point.
That in turn could cause a rift in the Horde. Baine already doesn't like Sylvanas and his closest adviser is Runetotem, who himself is a close friend and student of Malfurion's.
Malfurion is not just an Alliance hero. He's saved the planet multiple times from the Legion now, and is one of the most famous individuals on Azeroth for it. Killing him isn't a blow against just the Alliance, it's murdering a champion of Azeroth and setting yourself up as an enemy against life.
But then, maybe being an enemy of life is what Sylvanas really wanted all along.
Wrong, it was Saurfang's plan.11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by NincaroSylvanas' Original Plan in the War of Thorns:
Wrong, that was all Sylvanas and not part of the original plan at all.11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by NincaroStep 2 - Kill Malfurion and possibly Tyrande to demoralize the other Night Elves.
Wrong, she burned Darnassus to prove a point to a dying Night Elf and as a result exactly what was expected happened, the Alliance retaliated, attacked Undercity, and now she lost it.11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by NincaroBurn the entirety of Darnassus to the ground because its the only remaining way to "win" the war that she could no longer pull out of.
Wrong, logical thinking would have involved at least trying to evacuate the civilian populace and THEN torching the tree. Thus still keeping hostages as leverage against the Alliance should they try to retaliate.11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by NincaroBurn the entirety of Darnassus to the ground because its the only remaining way to "win" the war that she could no longer pull out of.
Wrong, Sylvanas is a complete moron who ruined everything due to having an ego the size Argus, and caused way more people to die than if she had just stuck to the plan.11/06/2018 12:21 PMPosted by NincaroSaurfang is a complete moron who ruined everything due to having a brain the size of a walnut and probably caused way more people to die than those that would have if he'd just stuck to the plan.