Sunreavers [spoilers]

[Roghter-ghostlands (Roghter)]

Well, let’s put the task into perspective, shall we?

Oh, this is going to be rich.

Firstly, the entirety of the Sunreavers are suspects.

Off to a great start. Racial profiling is a law enforcement tool that can not be overlooked.

So what do you do with Suspects in a perfect legal system?

Perfect? Setting the standards high, this is going to be some next level law enforcement.

Naturally you detain them, investigate them, and interrogate them, before reaching a conclusion.

Okay, going to start with detainment. Interesting move for a perfect legal system. One might want to only detain people if there was probable cause but… Jaina clearly is on a next level.

So, how does one imprison and isolate 1,000 Sunreavers, and then process individual interrogations?

Badly if the current story is to be believed.

It’s a task that’d take years. It’s not feasible.

Good point, your perfect system is a failure. Some would say it’s because perfection is the enemy of the possible. Personally I just think you started with imprisonment because that was the only way to argue that Jaina was right and then found yourself in a corner. Try to avoid arguing from your conclusion in the future.

So here’s how a perfect system would have actually worked.

First things first, you be sensible about this. The divine bell is already in Orgrimmar, there is no immediate threat of further damage. So you take a few deep breaths and avoid doing anything rash in the first five minutes like banishing innocent citizens, ordering their imprisonment, or killing innocent animals. Seriously, those Dragonhawks did nothing to you. Any immediate security concerns you address by removing ‘suspects’ from high risk positions.

Then you investigate. First you gather clues from the scene, or scenes of criminal activity. This allows you to learn things about the perpetrators and in so doing, allows you to eliminate entire swathes of this ‘thousand man’ suspect pool. These Sunreavers can return to any sensitive duties that they’ve had.

Then you start investigating any individual suspects that stood out during your examination of the crime scene. At this point you start ruling out specific suspects, if they have an alibi, if they had no opportunity to commit the crime, things like that. Any Sunreaver ruled out in this stage can return to any sensitive duties that they’ve had.

At this point you usually have enough evidence for probable cause of at least one of the ‘some’ Sunreavers. You drag him in and between his known associates and interrogation, you get the names of the rest.

So do I. It’s as if players expect Jaina to literally have the knowledge of the authors at her disposal. In the RP scene this is referred to as, ‘Meta-Gaming,’ and is, in fact, a RP’ing taboo.

I’ve seen no players make that mistake. You’re likely confused.

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

In a perfect legal system you gather evidence to establish probable cause before arresting someone. There was by no means such evidence to implicate all, or even most, of the Sunreavers.

So we’re just going to skip over how, investigating the Theft of the Divine Bell, Jaina found evidence of the Sunreavers using the Kirin Tor’s resources to make it even possible?

I mean, there certainly is no evidence if you choose to ignore the evidence…

Perfect? Setting the standards high, this is going to be some next level law enforcement.

Perfect, ideal, etc… you get the idea. Best case scenario, you do your due process.

Okay, going to start with detainment. Interesting move for a perfect legal system.

Indeed.

If this was a matter of robbery, you’d bring them in for questioning before releasing them, but this is a matter of treason.

So here’s how a perfect system would have actually worked.

Perfect, ideal, etc… let’s take a look.

First things first, you be sensible about this. The divine bell is already in Orgrimmar, there is no immediate threat of further damage.

Lol wut? The Divine Bell could be weaponized at any moment and the Horde has just proven it has direct access to Dalaran itself. There very clearly is an IMMEDIATE threat of Mass Destruction.

Then you investigate.

Kind of missing the point that this was the first thing. The Divine Bell was stolen, Jaina has the Alliance PC come to Darnassus to investigate, and finds evidence that implicates the Sunreavers. Unfortunately, there is no evidence to specify any specific Sunreavers, just the whole organization.

Did people forget this was a part of the Purge?

Then you start investigating any individual suspects that stood out during your examination of the crime scene. At this point you start ruling out specific suspects, if they have an alibi, if they had no opportunity to commit the crime, things like that. Any Sunreaver ruled out in this stage can return to any sensitive duties that they’ve had.

Kind of hard when the entire organization are suspects, because again, there was no evidence that said, “Hallorath of the Sunreavers was here.” So you can’t really drag in individuals. So, we’re back to questioning 1,000+ individuals checking alibis, and taking so long to do it because of how many there are, that the guilty parties can create a story and alibis to protect themselves.

Meanwhile, while all this is going on, the genocidal megalomaniac that destroyed Theramore with a powerful magical artifact, has his hands on another powerful magical artifact.

[Aurirel-wyrmrest-accord]

Lack of specific evidence is not probable cause for mass arrest. It is cause for general investigation, which is to narrow down who to detain first. It is not a gang in a hide out, it’s a large part of the city populace.

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

So while a lengthy and exhaustive investigation is on-going, Dalaran continues to harbor dissidents willing to use Kirin Tor assets to support the Horde’s war of Genocide, all while the Horde has the Divine Bell and every intent of weaponizing it?

I feel like people don’t grasp the gravity of the situation. Time was a resource the Kirin Tor did not have.

[Roghter-ghostlands (Roghter)]

Lol wut? The Divine Bell could be weaponized at any moment and the Horde has just proven it has direct access to Dalaran itself. There very clearly is an IMMEDIATE threat of Mass Destruction.

I’m sorry, I recognize that you have trouble with context. The Sunreavers are no immediate threat because the Divine Bell is no longer had by the Sunreavers.

Obviously Garrosh is an immediate threat, and had Jaina gone after Garrosh to get the bell back, well, we’d be having a different discussion.

Did people forget this was a part of the Purge?

Forget wouldn’t be the word, since this never happened. Jaina discovered a crime had been committed. Jaina didn’t investigate the crime scene.

Kind of hard when the entire organization are suspects,

Again, you missed an important part of what I said earlier. By doing an investigation of the crime scene that goes beyond following some tracks and handing out punishment you’ve eliminated many members of that organization.

This would be akin to checking witness statements, in depth forensics, even recording the time of the theft so that you’d know that any Sunreaver who was, say, confirmed to be at his post working wasn’t a suspect.

You should go back and reread my post, you’ve clearly missed every significant part.

So while a lengthy and exhaustive investigation is on-going, Dalaran continues to harbor dissidents willing to use Kirin Tor assets to support the Horde’s war of Genocide, all while the Horde has the Divine Bell and every intent of weaponizing it?

This I actually already addressed in the early part of my post. You remove any Sunreavers from positions where possible dissent can allow them to harm the Kirin Tor.

As for your fear mongering around Garrosh and the divine bell. Jaina didn’t lift a damn finger to stop him once he had the bell so that couldn’t be less relevant.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

So we’re just going to skip over how, investigating the Theft of the Divine Bell, Jaina found evidence of the Sunreavers using the Kirin Tor’s resources to make it even possible?

You misunderstood what I said. I said there was no evidence to implicate all or most of the Sunreavers. Not that there was no evidence relating to the crime whatsoever. Heck, her statement doesn’t even mention the Sunreavers till she randomly runs right at Aethas.

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: These portals connect to Dalaran. That means the Kirin Tor… MY OWN Kirin Tor… helped the Horde commit this atrocity.

To say this is probable cause to suspect a thousand people to the degree one can imprison or exile those people living in a city? In a perfect legal system? Outrageously authoritarian and far from ideal.

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

@Roghter-ghostlands

I’m sorry, I recognize that you have trouble with context. The Sunreavers are no immediate threat because the Divine Bell is no longer had by the Sunreavers.

Obviously Garrosh is an immediate threat, and had Jaina gone after Garrosh to get the bell back, well, we’d be having a different discussion.

Except the Sunreavers are working for Garrosh, so if Garrosh decided to have them unleash the Divine Bell in Dalaran… see where this goes? Again, there was a very clear and real threat.

@Roghter-ghostlands

Forget wouldn’t be the word, since this never happened. Jaina discovered a crime had been committed. Jaina didn’t investigate the crime scene.

Darnassus Attacked?

Sure looks like she investigated the Crime Scene.

@Roghter-ghostlands

This would be akin to checking witness statements, in depth forensics, even recording the time of the theft so that you’d know that any Sunreaver who was, say, confirmed to be at his post working wasn’t a suspect.

How do you confirm anything like that in a city of magic? Where Illusion magic exists, mages can clone themselves with Mirror Images, etc… unless you were ALREADY looking for this stuff, the chances of finding it are like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Again, time was not something on the side of the Kirin Tor. They couldn’t go through a lengthy investigation.

[Aurirel-wyrmrest-accord]

And use a hate group to do the “Justice”.

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

Those darn Silver Covenant racists! They should all be charged with Hate Crimes! I mean, it’s not as if they haven’t gone out of their way to aid the Blood Elves against a resurfacing Amani Threat or anything.

Or we could accept there is a difference between a, ‘Hate Group,’ and an organization founded upon the very real (and ultimately proven true) concern that a large population seeking entry into the city would eventually betray that city.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

It’s funny that you bring up the Druids of the Flame, since people are upset at Blood Elf players having to kill Sunreavers who saw people they cared about killed around them and are now working for someone evil because of it, but wasn’t that the same as Night Elf players having had to kill Leyara back in the day?

[Roghter-ghostlands (Roghter)]

Except the Sunreavers are working for Garrosh, so if Garrosh decided to have them unleash the Divine Bell in Dalaran… see where this goes? Again, there was a very clear and real threat.

Completely hypothetical, and proven wrong by the majority of the Sunreavers in tides of war.

Now you’re changing the subject, can I take this to mean you’ve given up claiming that an authoritative crackdown on a quarter of your city’s population is what happens in a ‘perfect’ legal system?

Sure looks like she investigated the Crime Scene.

Then you don’t know what an investigation looks like. I’d suggest reading the rest of that paragraph as it gives you an idea of what an investigation would look like.

How do you confirm anything like that in a city of magic?

By using magic. Now you’re arguing from ignorance. Because you don’t see how an investigation is possible, you are opting to conclude an investigation is impossible. Nothing in the lore supports this.

Again, time was not something on the side of the Kirin Tor. They couldn’t go through a lengthy investigation.

As explained to you repeatedly, time was on the side of the Kirin Tor and there was no pressing need to act now. The cliche “Don’t cry over spilled milk” applies here. Since the Divine Bell was gone the Sunreavers were only a threat if there was a second Divine Bell to steal. Since there wasn’t, there was no immediate threat. If there was a second Divine Bell to steal, then you simply post a guard at the Kirin Tor portals so that masked groups of Sunreavers can’t pass through on the way to their next heist.

At this stage you’re flailing. You’ve lost the argument and the only question is how ridiculous you’re going to get before you walk away to make up a version of this where you were right.

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

Completely hypothetical, and proven wrong by the majority of the Sunreavers in tides of war.

Again, just because the majority weren’t in Garrosh’s pocket doesn’t mean that small handful that were, would be incapable of acting.

By using magic. Now you’re arguing from ignorance. Because you don’t see how an investigation is possible, you are opting to conclude an investigation is impossible. Nothing in the lore supports this.

Let’s try a Hypothetical.

Sunreaver #425 is a Garrosh Loyalist. He leaves an illusion of himself at his post while he goes off and helps steal the Divine Bell. He returns while the Kirin Tor is trying to organize a massive force to investigate, talks to the people who would have seen him at his post, gets their agreement to point out he was there, and now has an alibi.

How does one investigate to prove that he used an illusion to cover his absence? Magic? The closest thing you’d need would be some kind of time magic to see the events unfolds, and such an artifact did not exist until well after the Purge. So, unless a Kirin Tor agent was watching that specific Sunreaver and casting Illusion-purging Spells on them, how would anyone be able to verify that he was, in fact, a traitor?

[Hackbrew-wyrmrest-accord (Hackbrew)]

Much better to, oh I don’t know… kick them all out, such as was Jaina’s original plan before Aethas decided to say, “Yeah, no, we’re not going anywhere,” at which point you’ve got a force in your city that has been the source for multiple treasons refusing compliance with the ruling authority.

I still don’t really follow this logic.

I get that Jaina told Aethas that they needed to get out and he said no. And I get that he’s the leader of the Sunreavers. But what’s stopping Jaina from arresting Aethas like she does, and then giving the same option to the rest of the Sunreavers?

No one’s really offered a good enough explanation for this other than “Aethas said no and that’s that”. If Jaina had enough time to scream bloody retribution while she arrested and kinda-but-not-really fireballed people, she had enough time to give them that ultimatum.

[Roghter-ghostlands (Roghter)]

Again, just because the majority weren’t in Garrosh’s pocket doesn’t mean that small handful that were, would be incapable of acting.

Fair enough, but since the Divine Bell was already gone I’ve already addressed this.

Let’s try a Hypothetical.

Dude, you can’t even understand what happened in the lore, and you want to stake your argument on bad fanfiction that you’re writing.

How does one investigate to prove that he used an illusion to cover his absence? Magic?

Okay, since we’re just making up a story. A Druid takes the form of a bear and uses his massive olfactory powers to memorize the scents of all people involved. After identifying Suspect #2 and learning of his alibi he then he smells the room where suspect #2 was supposedly working and discovers he wasn’t working.

The bear puts on his sunglasses and The Who’s “Won’t Get Fooled Again” starts to play.

Find me anything in the lore that supports your last ditch, desperate attempt to shift the goal post by claiming an investigation was impossible and we can discuss this. Otherwise I don’t care about your hypothetical, it’s not lore and it’s not relevant.

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

No one’s really offered a good enough explanation for this other than “Aethas said no and that’s that”. If Jaina had enough time to scream bloody retribution while she arrested and kinda-but-not-really fireballed people, she had enough time to give them that ultimatum.

Because at that point she had no reason not to believe a large number of Sunreavers were involved, if not all of them. Arresting their leader would probably stir more than a few up, and giving them an ultimatum gives them time to organize a resistance. Suddenly your city becomes a battlefield.

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

Fair enough, but since the Divine Bell was already gone I’ve already addressed this.

But there’s no evidence it can’t come back, which is what you’re ignoring. The threat is real. The Horde has access to Dalaran through the portal networks that they’ve already used. Removing the traitors is the only way to secure them and the safety of the city.

Okay, since we’re just making up a story. A Druid takes the form of a bear and uses his massive olfactory powers to memorize the scents of all people involved. After identifying Suspect #2 and learning of his alibi he then he smells the room where suspect #2 was supposedly working and discovers he wasn’t working.

But if that was his post, he’d have been there often, so his scent would still linger. He’d still be smelled there.

[Hackbrew-wyrmrest-accord (Hackbrew)]

Because at that point she had no reason not to believe a large number of Sunreavers were involved, if not all of them. Arresting their leader would probably stir more than a few up, and giving them an ultimatum gives them time to organize a resistance. Suddenly your city becomes a battlefield.

So you agree that the Sunreavers were never given the ultimatum to leave the city in peace?

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

So you agree that the Sunreavers were never given the ultimatum to leave the city in peace?

They were given it through Aethas who refused it on their behalf.

[Roghter-ghostlands (Roghter)]

But there’s no evidence it can’t come back, which is what you’re ignoring.

I’ve already addressed this. The guards that we posted at the portals to stop masked Sunreavers from sneaking off to a second heist for the Divine Triangle, they can watch for anyone smuggling a large bell back into Dalaran at the same time.

But if that was his post, he’d have been there often, so his scent would still linger. He’d still be smelled there.

Yeah, his defense attorney is welcome to argue that in court, but Detective Yogi can tell the difference between someone who was there 2 days ago and someone who was there yesterday. And he’s a very tough witness to rattle on the stand because he doesn’t change back to a Night Elf when he takes the stand.

And as much fun as it is imagining the bizarre adventures of a druid detective who does most of his investigation in bear form, it’s not relevant.

[Vexander-wyrmrest-accord]

And as much fun as it is imagining the bizarre adventures of a druid detective who does most of his investigation in bear form, it’s not relevant.

Honestly I’m actually pretty amused by that, no lie. I’d totally be up for Blizzard throwing in a joke series of quests with a character like that.