Succubus is sexist please remove/ incubus incoming

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

We’re in a mutually beneficial contract with her. We feed her the hearts of good men, she does our bidding when we choose to summon her. We stop feeding her the hearts of good men, she’s free to go because contract is broken.

The outfit could use some touchups (I mean the Madonna cone bra is just… so 90s), and I wouldn’t object to something like a Victorian Dominatrix (so long as we get the equivalent for an Incubus because we were promised such ten years ago

If anything, the canonical lore of our in-game succubus minion is much improved over the IRL myth:

@Baalsamael-turalyon

In myth? No, the oldest iteration of the succubus, the “Lilin” or “lilu”, are traditionally the daughters/servants of Lilith, who in some retellings is the “first vampire” (because she survived on blood in the desert East of Eden) or the “mother of demons” (folklore which started as Jewish myth and spread to both Christians and Muslims over the centuries) by being the consort of Satan (and in some iterations of Jewish medieval theology, she is the mother of Cain).

Otherwise some other “Night Women” vary from the Greek Lampades (who serve Hekate), Irish Banshees (who are often described as beautiful, particularly the Banshee Queen Cliodhna), or the more cursory and globally “White Lady” myths (e.g. Latin American Llorona), or the Greek Lamia.

Notably, the Mesopotamian Lilu which became the Jewish Lilin (of Lilith) was translated by Hellenic Jews in the Septuagint as “Daimonia” (Demons, or Spirits) in Isaiah 34 while the Roman Church translated it as Greek Lamia but Latinized and retained.

Medieval Jewish theology maintained the Succubi were the children of the Demon Queens while Western Christian tradition the Succubi and Incubi were divided into two separate beings.

Notably both the Lamia of Greek is derived also from the Mesopotamian myth of the Lammashtu/Lammea (historical speculation) who is separate from the Lilu, but the Lammea are daughter/s of Anu while the Lilu are tied to Inanna/Ishtar.

In every iteration and in its mythological genealogy, the succubus is a predator and a servant, and tied to both nocturnal emissions, the death of newborns (particularly male newborns), or children both with malformations, usually due to punishment of the parents.

The real issue is we lack an Incubus and we lack Warlock Stables.

Support warlock stables!

In my ideal world, Succubus slot should be:

• Succubus
• Shivarra
• Spider lady demons
• Imp Mothers
• Satyr
• Felblood Elves
• Fel Orcs
• Eredar (both models)

[Phoenickz-sargeras]

@Lokath-blackhand

As the title suggests, the succubus demon/warlock pet needs to be removed from the game. It perpetuates a harmful stereotype of female subservience. Additionally, she is barely wearing any clothes.

Now is the time. Times up.

Edit: With the removal of /spit, this is more likely than not to happen.

More evidence that supports blizzard removing or editing the succubus.

Succubi are, and have always been, demoness who don’t wear much clothing. This should not be changed under any circumstances. If you do not like it, deal with it. It is in the lore, it is how the culture is around it. Stop trying to change just for the sake of change because your sensitivity levels are too bad.

@Lokath-blackhand

Edit: so there has been a lot of discussion, at least SOME was constructive. Maybe there can be some kind of compromise. I.E. glyphs, add an incubus, put actual armor on the succubus, etc…. There have been too many people not taking this seriously enough, and several trolls have resorted to attacking me instead of discussing the topic at hand.

Because you are crazy and insane for trying to change things like this. A full on neurotic nutcase. That being said, though, no, it should not be changed nor does it need to be. You can have a glyph for incubus, that would be fine. A succubus with armor would be cool to have as a glyph as well, but that still doesn’t change the original form of them.

@Winsten-sentinels

Just remove yourself from the game instead, OP.

Agreed, from the internet really. If people are literally too sensitive, you should not be using the internet, at all. Not trying to be some mean bully here, but seriously, you’re not doing the game nor world any favors with being so uber sensitive. I hate sounding like an a-hole, but, this is seriously neuroticism at its core.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Phoenickz-sargeras

Succubi are, and have always been, demoness who don’t wear much clothing.

Historically false as I illustrate in the post immediately above yours.

The cultural genealogy of demons being an area of research of mine IRL

Frankly, I am not married to the Madonna Cone Bra.

But if they’re gonna change her outfit, it is high time we get an incubus.

[Lokath-blackhand (Lokath)]

Blizzard is already cleaning up the less than acceptable content in the game. Only a matter of time.

[Saithis-shandris (Saithis)]

i can def see succubus going away

the entire concept behind her fits in with the stuff they’re removing

[Lokath-blackhand (Lokath)]

Exactly. You know a lot of great suggestions have come up from other players that I agree would be a good work around.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

I mean they could easily just replace succubus while maintaining the core fantasy

Call them Lilim, or Lamias.

[Laragonsia-proudmoore]

They can just replace succubus with that demon spider in Legion, instead of seducing someone, the spider can just use their web ability to achieve the same result.

[Saithis-shandris (Saithis)]

yeah i assume they’d just replace her with a different demon that has all the same types of abilities.

i’m not against current succubus, but she does crack a whip and moan…so i am guessing she’s out lol

[Lokath-blackhand (Lokath)]

There were many good suggestions like just covering her up a bit, or adding a glyph of some sort.

I think there is a middle ground to be reached here.

[Lokath-blackhand (Lokath)]

I’m always down with more options!

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Laragonsia-proudmoore

They can just replace succubus with that demon spider in Legion

Or just retcon Succubi/Incubi as Lilim, and instead of seduction it’s just a “night song”.

I want my incubus tho.

Again, warlock stables:

@Baalsamael-turalyon

In my ideal world, Succubus slot should be:

• Succubus
• Shivarra
• Spider lady demons
• Imp Mothers
• Satyr
• Felblood Elves
• Fel Orcs
• Eredar (both models)

[Laragonsia-proudmoore]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

I want my incubus tho.

Introducing incubus is like seeing house A is burning, but instead of helping house A, you decide to burn house B.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Again, your framing of the succubus, if sincere, is canonically incorrect and you should review your lore, or my posts

@Baalsamael-turalyon

We’re in a mutually beneficial contract with her. We feed her the hearts of good men, she does our bidding when we choose to summon her. We stop feeding her the hearts of good men, she’s free to go because contract is broken.

The outfit could use some touchups (I mean the Madonna cone bra is just… so 90s), and I wouldn’t object to something like a Victorian Dominatrix (so long as we get the equivalent for an Incubus because we were promised such ten years ago

If anything, the canonical lore of our in-game succubus minion is much improved over the IRL myth:

@Baalsamael-turalyon

In myth? No, the oldest iteration of the succubus, the “Lilin” or “lilu”, are traditionally the daughters/servants of Lilith, who in some retellings is the “first vampire” (because she survived on blood in the desert East of Eden) or the “mother of demons” (folklore which started as Jewish myth and spread to both Christians and Muslims over the centuries) by being the consort of Satan (and in some iterations of Jewish medieval theology, she is the mother of Cain).

Otherwise some other “Night Women” vary from the Greek Lampades (who serve Hekate), Irish Banshees (who are often described as beautiful, particularly the Banshee Queen Cliodhna), or the more cursory and globally “White Lady” myths (e.g. Latin American Llorona), or the Greek Lamia.

Notably, the Mesopotamian Lilu which became the Jewish Lilin (of Lilith) was translated by Hellenic Jews in the Septuagint as “Daimonia” (Demons, or Spirits) in Isaiah 34 while the Roman Church translated it as Greek Lamia but Latinized and retained.

Medieval Jewish theology maintained the Succubi were the children of the Demon Queens while Western Christian tradition the Succubi and Incubi were divided into two separate beings.

Notably both the Lamia of Greek is derived also from the Mesopotamian myth of the Lammashtu/Lammea (historical speculation) who is separate from the Lilu, but the Lammea are daughter/s of Anu while the Lilu are tied to Inanna/Ishtar.

In every iteration and in its mythological genealogy, the succubus is a predator and a servant, and tied to both nocturnal emissions, the death of newborns (particularly male newborns), or children both with malformations, usually due to punishment of the parents.

The real issue is we lack an Incubus and we lack Warlock Stables.

[Laragonsia-proudmoore]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Again, your framing of the succubus, if sincere, is canonically incorrect and you should review your lore, or my posts

That succubus quest is no longer canon, Warlock summon/sacrifice different succubus than the one you form a pact back in the day now.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Nope, class quests, even if removed, retain canonicity in this regard.

We do not learn to summon a succubus by ourselves upon reaching level 20 by inhaling air.

Especially given the new quest to summon a voidwalker from the void via a grimoire that requires to subjugate the voidwalker is indeed the same canon as the previous versions of the quest.

Next question?

[Laragonsia-proudmoore]

Then how do you explain that Warlock’s demon no longer has a fixed name?

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Because we canonically summon a demon/aberration from a grimoire ritual, and then enter into a contract with it (for all the rational demons) or forcibly subjugate it (for the felpuppy because it is a demon dog and void aberrations because they require being subjugated as otherwise they’d consume reality).

While for gameplay reasons we can cha cha slide over to Demon/Aberration Renaming NPC and just “randomly select a new demon”, canonically this is not the material reality.

Canonically each time we are “changing our demons”, we actually would have to do the ritual again and enter in a contract with a new demon (or subjugate them for the 3 minions aforementioned) and release the previous demon (or aberration) from contract.

Unless of course warlock stables are added, in which case you could just endlessly keep any demon in a giant grimoire and just pick your favorites any given day.

All of which you would know if you read my warlock stables post

Warlock Customization: Stables for Demons/Aberrations

Copy pasting from my Shadowlands Compilation thread in the warlock forums lol Consider: Short and sweet asks: Please give warlocks the ability to speak Demonic once more. Please fix the Wrathguard dual wield. Give the Shivarra her other weapons back, also consider also letting her wield stuff from our backpack. Also back in Cataclysm, we were told an Incubus glyph is coming for Succubus. Surely a blood elf male model can be demon-ified for this end? A copy of the Hunter Tame/Stable syst…

[Luuni-area-52]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Eredar (both models)

Blizzard…… I mean… this is going to be a really, really big please.

Also a red Draenei warlock. It’d be double the Draenei. The game would explode.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

like/bump the stable post then smh