Hi. I wanna start off by wishing everyone a merry Christmas. Anyways, I was streaming the other day and I wanted to demonstrate some of the problems with sub rogue in pvp. (please watch this clip as context https://www.twitch.tv/videos/353972729 ) I am a sub rogue with BIS stats and gear for pvp and I think I correctly showed some of the issues with the spec currently. I would like to also bring attention to the fact that I was hitting a cloth wearer and they are generally squishy.
edit - Please let me know yours thoughts on this guys. I really do think that if blizzard thinks this is proper balance that they are delusional.
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how do i downvote? ![:slight_smile:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
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Sub needs to be buffed. Backstab would be a good starting point. Sub is not about white damage. So Act-Blizz needs to accept that Sub is about yellow damage by using energy pooling correctly.
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Yeah… the damage for sub is really sad at the moment. I want it to be buffed… I want it to be great like it has been in nearly every past expansion… or well the style to be good that is lmao.
This is definitely something I’ve noticed when watching Pikaboo is that… he doesn’t do anything but control the fight when he’s doing double dps 2s as sub. I mean he’ll do insane burst during the kill phase, but otherwise he’s just using his kit to help his other dps so that the other guy can actually kill something.
It’s a sad state for sub right now, and it truly makes me sad. I don’t enjoy sin, or outlaw. Sub sadly won’t see a buff until it starts REALLY under-performing in pve too.
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Sub is pretty fun to play but man it just does no damage and even though control is fun damage is king, sin/fire rmp taught us that ;_;
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I popped all my CDs into a mage barrier and I didnt dent it. LMAO… I always like the trash classes in pvp for some reason…
Please fix this. … Please for the love OF GOD… how did this get past your dev process… Do you not Test classes out in PvE and PvP before you implement changes… Can wait till I burn out on WoW so I can unsub till next expac Like I Could not Break a mage barrier WITH FUKING COOLDOWN… yes im salty
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I think if you changed your talents you would get a different result. I don’t know why you picked a couple you did. I’d go for vigor not marked for death, as sub has no trouble building combo points fast, its all about burst and finishers, and if you are starved for energy you cant do that as easy. I would suggest the healing talent, not elusiveness, (it’s an 18% heal in 6 sec. per shadow dance.) And you should take enveloping shadows not dark shadow. You get a third shadow dance charge and finishers reset them a lot faster. Sub damage is all in the shadow dance, you are not an outlaw rogue. I’ve had no trouble with mine talented this way, granted I’m probably not as “elite” as you. I find the other rogue specs a bit boring.
Try changing talents a bit.
Literally everything you just recommended would make his burst worse than it already is.
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Can you explain how that would be the case?
I’m certainly not trying to backstab and auto attack people to death on my rogue.
And I’ve been playing around with my talents, it works out pretty smoothly for me.
My other character I play a lot is a fire mage. I think I would know burst.
Sub burst comes from stacking modifiers during a shadow dance window and trying to squeeze as many eviscerates during that time. Passing on dark shadow gimps you by 25% and bypassing MFD also eliminates a 5 point eviscerate during that same timeframe.
Also worth mentioning the OP is a 2.9k rated sub rogue trying to keep the dream alive. I think he’s tried a lot of different talent builds at this point.
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Yes, I know how sub works, there’s nightblade, and symbols of death as modifiers.
You can pass on dark shadow for a third shadow dance and having more shadow dance uptime. You can pass up MFD for a higher energy pool and faster regen.
I don’t think it matters what his rating is. I did state I’m not as “elite” as he may be. I’m also living overseas and don’t play as much as I used to when I was younger, but I’m having fun in pvp talented the way I mentioned. Sub can take people down just as fast as the other rogue specs, its just preference.
Also, they dropped the + 30% crit pvp talent from sub during shadow dance for a reason I would think.
lol. But please do go on about your experience in unrated content as Sub, Im sure there are many things glad+ sub rogues can learn from you.
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Yeah, because a normal typical player isnt allowed to have fun with a spec because the “pros” say it’s broken, even though it works pretty well for the typical player.
Guess this forum should require 2400+ rating in pvp / have the latest raid on mythic farm in order to post and have an opinion, right?
Additionally, every class at some point feels or felt blizzard is “screwing them.” If everyone is complaining, then who really needs to be fixed? It’s been that way for years. I’m sure we could find examples right now in a few other class forums if we wanted to. Asking to be able to run around one shotting everyone with no counterplay doesn’t seem to be realistic.
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Guess this forum should require 2400+ rating in pvp / have the latest raid on mythic farm in order to post and have an opinion, right?
It’s not like that.
In PvE, Dark Shadow is pretty close to Enveloping on most fights because Enveloping really does get you a lot more shadow dance uptime IF you can maintain a constant melee rotation.
In PvP, bursting hard is more important for the team than bursting often, and the shadow dance uptime that enveloping adds is much worse than in PvE because your on-target uptime is generally worse (players tend to kite or cc you). Dark Shadows is a lot better than Enveloping in coordinated PvP right now, by a big margin.
For MfD vs Vigor, Vigor is by far the worst talent in that row for PvE and PvP for Sub rogues. As Flipflops said, MfD allows you to get off another max Evis during the burst window. Vigor does not, because energy regen during dance is already high enough to let you spam abilities for those 5-15 seconds (assuming inevitability).
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I don’t understand how anyone can still argue against sub needing changes. I wouldn’t even ask for buffs, it does need them, but changing the spec to make it less dysfunctional in current meta would be an improvement.
Simply they nerfed it’s only real source of damage/burst by obliterating eviscerate. Demon hunters blade dance which requires nothing more than it being off CD does more damage and cleaves than a 5 point eviscerate crit at most gear levels. If you have insane mastery/procs it does more, but it still doesn’t compare. They change ambush/shadowstrike, it used to deal damage but now it’s also weak like backstab.
Frankly that’s entirely okay because I don’t think this game needs more mindless 12 IQ pve specs that just constantly do pressure damage, revolving the damage around burst/setup again by buffing evis and shadowstrike and keeping dance at 1 charge would be the best thing for sub. It does a lot of things well, but damage is not one of them outside of freakish difficult to obtain levels of mastery and procs with shadow blades up.
Stungodx was the only high rated sub rogue on the ladder, he has more games and experience with the spec than anybody else, arguing with him is ridiculous at this point. He isn’t being irrational asking for insane buffs, like me and a lot of other players we just want a functioning spec that we enjoy, and I don’t enjoy assassination because it’s a spec design for monkeys.
Edit: Also thank you for speaking up about the spec and I hope this gets some positive attention from Blizzard. Doesn’t seem like a lot of higher rated rogues bother to say anything anymore
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First of all you dont know what youre talking about. Sub even if eviscerate did damage will not one shot. It only one shots if the person being hit does nothing and is below 65%. If i pop everything and you dont trinket you should die in a 6-8
stun in every situation where your team doesnt peel. The 2 charge system is annoying but the removal of goremaw kind of balances it out. Cus now you dont have big damage every minute with cold blood and goremaw.
You may not know this but at high rating you only trinket sub stuns if the mage has cds or… the rogue procs battlefield x2 in the stun and he has blades and cold blood. The problem is people who post at low rating actually dont understand kill and win conditions. Yea you may be fine in random bgs cus the randoms dont know what they are doing. Pls stop saying you know whats going on cus you clearly dont. The only way sub is viable is if you get lucky enough to get battlefield x2.
To your second point. Blizzard should be constantly balancing pve/pvp at 15$ a month pricepoint. Accepting bad practice is what you must like though i guess. Eat dung for the sake of eating dung i guess.
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Buff Sub Blizz
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why does Sub spec really suck now?? it’s probably the worst thing in the game to play right now WHY AM I OUTLAW
absolutely disgusting if they dont fix sub and make it the strong scary burst spec it should be i dont wanna play
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Only a masochist would play Subtlety now.
It is fun as hell though.
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