To be fair, MSV was the strongest Hunter spec for a good portion of Legion, yet very few people took them into mythics/raids.
It’s not always about tuning. There’s a plethora of other factors, too. 
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Trying to compete with the other brand new melee spec of a brand new class that happens to be a disciple of the main protagonist of the expansion who happens to be one of the two most iconic villains in the game, introducing a brand new mechanic with double jump, being just as strong if not stronger, and being far simpler to play…you mean those kinds of factors?
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It wasnt. It had a rotation that required more attention, which few took the time to get into. It was new as well, so all that info was lacking.
Raid, theres always a shortage of ranged, melee spots are often already taken. Mythic +, well if you’re not in the top “class” for it, pugs dont even invite you even if you have good raider io.
Also theres what Photonfervor says as well… competing with the high dmg DH…
Well guess what, you still have your ranged class ! We’re moving slowly away from specs and focusing on class. So you havent lost anything.
They arent different from a caster… the main difference is that they cant get interrupted. All the rest is the same as a caster, you use skills to attack from a distance. Oh and traps a little different too, but not that whole much due to how its used.
Because theres a general preference for melee. The iconic warrior, being the best tank n dps for ages… The rogue, the one that screams Leet PvP… Then you have the “hero” class representation. Arthas, Illidan… Paladin-DK-DH.
Range classes dont have that. Guldan ? Rexxar ? Malfurion ? Tyrande ? They’re all insects next to the main ones.
I think Ion summed up the reason best, “We knew with Survival Hunter that we were making a niche spec. It is a melee spec for a class that has traditionally being range. I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class, and so we don’t necessarily expect them or want them to feel like they should be changing”.
I’ll go out on a limb here and say changing a spec in ANY class not to appeal to the members of that class is bad idea.
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Well they dont have to change… Hunter can still play as a ranged class. But some loved to play melee as hunter, side by side with a companion… something no other classes / spec offered. Just as the name says, a Hunter isnt saying ranged, its something that hunts, track, kill for fun / sports.
If you are going to base 100% of your arguments on nitpicking individual words of the original manual definition, at least do it well. Not only does it specifically say Hunters are primarily a ranged class, it also explicitly differentiates between combat classes that use melee attacks and Hunters which use ranged attacks.
It’s actually incredible how you think you can look at the content of that manual page and somehow derive a) Explosive Shot doesn’t fit, yet b) melee does. Like, I’ve seriously never met someone who can so thoroughly delude themselves to believe something so contrary to the writing of the page they’re looking at. It’s kind of impressive.
They had to revise the very central element of our class’s identity to make a melee spec fit, plain and simple. By doing so our class identity is diluted. It should really tell you something when this (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/363927102543757334/640168285337288724/unknown.png) was the first reaction of the Survival channel on Trueshot Lodge after Holinka was on stage talking about class identity over spec identity; this is becasue Survival Hunters know their spec is the odd-one-out and the single worst offender of the issue Holinka was talking about in the whole game.
It really does. Because, after all, what is your definition of “adapt”? Everyone still here has “adapted” by the true definition of the word. We are now playing BM or MM. I’ve stayed subscribed and progressed in mythic raiding in every tier since SV has been melee, as BM. That certainly is “adapting”, yet not by your definition. You believe “adapting” is never talking about ranged SV again.
So, like I said, avoiding talking about a negative a change is not a virtue, and neither is your vain tone-policing.
No, we really aren’t. Taking back the spec that was taken away does not make us as bad as the people campaigning for it to be taken in the first place. I don’t buy into this “oops we made a mistake but don’t you dare ask us to undo it or else you would be just as bad” logic at all.
At least it actually made it to a world first boss kill.
You’re right, we should remove MSV because it doesn’t make sense for such a munitions expert to be limited to melee combat.
Plus, what he described is not at all like melee SV. Melee SV does not have any inherent improvement to traps unlike ranged SV (despite ostensibly still being the “trapper”) and it is not optionally dependent on the pet; it is inherently dependent on the pet since it borrows from BM’s identity and toolkit.
Using the same logic: melee SV is almost the same as Unholy DK. Both are melee, both have pets, both have rudimentary DoTs and ranged capabilities.
“If you ignore what was different it was the same”
Then they should invent a character. Good games allow the lore and the gameplay to play into each-other. Ranged SV emerged through an iterative design process spanning over a decade; it’s ridiculous to pretend the lack of lore representation for the ultimate result invalidates that. Plus, as Ghorak points out, there are both lore characters and in-game NPCs that represent various elements of ranged SV already. If you think that’s not enough and one character needs to represent the whole spec, feel free to demonstrate how Rexxar represents Serpent Sting and Wildfire Bomb.
Rexxar is aptly represented by BM, being a Beast Master and all. If you think the melee part is essential, then they should make some optional subspec for BM that is melee. This would solve all the issues at once. It would give you the melee representation you so want (being a melee main with a Hunter alt, after all) while it would not take a spec away from Hunters. It would play into the fact that there is no way to have a melee Hunter that doesn’t depend on a pet without duplicating BM’s identity to another spec. On that note, it’s ridiculous how you think ranged SV cannot be sufficiently different to MM yet you apparently think it’s fine to have 2 beast-focused specs in the Hunter class, one being ranged and one being melee. Yet another double-standard from the melee fanatic.
Why do you keep using this argument? A focus on class over spec works against melee Hunter. I don’t remember exactly where I last mentioned it but I’ll say it again: since they have started talking about the mistake of focusing on specs over class, they have only named one spec directly and that spec was melee Survival (https://www.wowhead.com/news=281275/liveblog-of-the-january-30-battle-for-azeroth-q-a-with-ion-hazzikostas)
Firstly, not only is is disgustingly patronising but it is flatly incorrect. Go look at Ghorak’s suggestions for Survival, or anyone’s for that matter. People wanted multidotting out of SV, which is a mode of DPS that requires far more attention and management.
Secondly, when you find yourself cordially agreeing with Kindwolf, someone who all but openly hates Hunters and who’s sole contribution to the forums is trolling the Hunter subforum, you know you are on the wrong side of the argument.
You made another post after this, but as Ghorak pointed out you pretty much made no argument but blurted out some empty one-liners just to make it look like you actually had a response.
Lor’themar was not precedent for a melee Hunter class. Like most Warcraft lore characters, he never perfectly fit any class. His original abilities were:
- Cleave
- Arcane Shock
- Mana Burn
- Mass Charm
None of these resemble Hunter abilities. You have one from Warriors, one from Priests, and two that don’t exist in any class. He could auto-attack with a ranged weapon, a melee weapon, and also use a shield. It takes some very selective yet creative logic to derive “spear-wielding melee Hunter” from this. In Nazjatar he uses these abilities:
- Arc Slash
- Arcane Shot
- Harpoon
- Stealth
So we have an MM Hunter ability, a SV Hunter ability, a Rogue ability, and something that doesn’t exist on any class. But, like I said, these are his Nazjatar abilities in 8.2, so this can’t possibly be precedent for anything that happened in 7.0.
Again with the excuses. Melee SV has never been a popular spec. Even in Uldir, it was one of the least-played specs in the game… just not as underplayed as it is now or in Legion. In Legion it was better than BM at a few points and it didn’t matter.
People aren’t going to start suddenly playing the spec if it does good damage. Like Hazzikostas said, Hunters generally do not want to play a melee spec.
You can use these as excuses if you want, but a) it doesn’t explain why SV is still unpopular now, and b) it just furthers the argument that making Survival melee in Legion was a mistake. Not only is adding 2 melee specs in 1 expansion overkill, but they are just setting it up for failure even ignoring the fact that Hunters don’t want it when the other class being added is Demon Hunter.
Are you actually machine-gunning excuses in the thread to try to argue against the established point that Hunters do not want to play a melee spec? Like, is this something you disagree with?
If there is a shortage of ranged, why did it make sense to replace a ranged spec with a melee spec? Do you not notice that in your attempted excusing for melee Survival’s unpopularity you are outlining reasons as to why making it melee was a bad idea?
No, we don’t. It is incomplete without what ranged SV was and your entire argument centres around trying to minimise that crucial difference between ranged SV and MM. We HAVE lost something because ranged SV no longer exists and neither of the two remaining ranged specs have it.
AGAIN with the class over spec argument? What will it take for you to realise this argument is against melee Survival?
Using a ranged weapon with auto-attacks leads to a very different aesthetic and gameplay style to casters. There are many concepts that work well with ranged weapons yet really don’t fit in with casters well, such as poison attacks. It’s an archetype worth exploring, and lord knows “physical melee weapon user” is something done to death in this game already.
YOU might have a preference for all these concepts but that does not mean Hunters do. Quite the contrary. Just as naming a bunch of melee concepts sounds cool to you, all the ranged possibilities we can list off sound great to the people playing ranged classes.
Ranged specs are actually more popular in general.
We did have to change… away from Survival, a ranged spec we liked to play, because it was no longer ranged. And, as we have established, neither of the remaining ranged specs play anything like that one did. Like I said, your entire argument circles around treating all ranged specs as the same and all people who play them as expendable, no doubt a product of your entitlement as someone infatuated with melee combat. Can’t really blame you, as you’ve been spoiled by Blizzard over the years as every single new DPS spec they make is a melee DPS and they have now proven that they’ll take away from ranged players just to please you.
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My definition of adapt is simple - adjust to the changes by either changing oneself, or changing path that one rather pursuit.
And great. That is being adaptive.
Please do show me proof where i said to ‘never talk about ranged SV’.
Putting words in my mouth - or imagining words from my mouth - is proving nothing but feeding your own victim complex.
One is free to talk about different opinions. This is an open forum for all.
But being abusive and rude to others is not a virtue, and neither is that self-condescending demeanor of yours. You do not need to talk in a rude manner to get your point across.
Do you think the best way to garner support to bring back RSV is to grill down every poster that disagrees and prefer MSV? Or you actually think there’s not even a need to discuss, we just need to follow and agree to what you say, hence the tone of speech?
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Sure champ, like that means anything.
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Ranged classes are lore-wise wayyyyy more powerful than melee.
Sylvannas
Azshara
Aegwynn
Kil’jaeden
Archimonde
Jaina
Medivh
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Edit - replied to the wrong poster
And he is revealed
A hater who cares nothing, at all, for his fellow players unless they fit into his narrow definition of what is acceptable thought
I came to this late but I think you have a long history of hate and resentment for your fellow players that no amount of posts can cure. In fact, even if every one of your demands was met, I’m sure you’d still spew your nonsense
You other posters who are big fans of rsurvival need to be careful in piggybacking on a “champion” like this guy. He’s poison
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I don’t think he is poison.
I’m actually very grateful for the work Bepples does here on the forums.
Calling out liars and educating the misinformed has got to be exhausting.
But when you’re right, you’re right. He has nothing to apologize for.
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Bepples literally makes up facts to fit his narratives, constantly passing off opinion as fact… great work indeed.
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You’re a zealot, as you’ve shown in all threads about rsv, talking with you is pointless. Poison. The Scarlet Hunter Bepples, there’s your title.
Never said they werent. They’re all great characters, but they all fade when it comes to popularity. I should also add the PvP videos, we all know of Pat the warrior and unbreakable the 2 handed shaman… so many of those also influenced player toward melee. Yes, theres some great ranged pvper out there… but darn, finding an interesting video is rough compared to the melee.
Well said.
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There sure is a remarkable discrepancy between the number of people claiming I am making up facts v.s. the number of people who can actually demonstrate anything of the sort.
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That is to say. Not exclusively. So point stands.
And I’ve never met anyone who can unironically describe themselves so well without acknowledging it
It’s because survival is the only spec in the game that’s ever changed from melee to ranged and they’re talking about bringing things back. i.e. going backwards to previous design. Really not a tough concept on this one bud.
Funnily enough there isn’t, where there is a discrepancy is what you understand as being facts and what is in reality a fact. Steeping yourself in denial doesn’t alter reality.
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If popularity is enough justification to add more melee specs, than unpopularity is justification enough to remove melee specs.
In the game overall perhaps, but not within the hunter class itself.
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i’m not against melee hunter and have actually wanted it for a while and made a point to try it every patch or so to see if any changes happened that made me like it. my issue is they completely scrapped my favorite play style in the whole game for the first version of melee which was so bad it felt like just random abilities shoved onto a class. the second version isn’t so bad but lacks utility to make it better to use than either ranged spec.
if you are going to gut a ranged spec and replace it with melee, either it needs to do a good bit more dps or have more utility than the ranged specs to even out the huge advantage that being ranged has. blizz first tried to give melee survival more utility by pruning out traps from the other two specs which just made bm and mm suck to play since they basically had no utility. now they all have traps so surv is just a worse spec with no advantage.
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Unpopular opinion here, but i actually prefer the first version of melee in Legion. The current BfA version is an improvement in many ways, but it also lost a lot of the melee flavor that Legion has.
But i absolutely agree that MSV/RSV should have been handled better, or even make into a 4th spec. I find the solution that they decided - gut one spec to make way for another spec - smells like a lop-sided compromise which certainly seems doesn’t care about player reactions/wishes.
Funny thing is Waylay could have been the answer to provide that extra utility for MSV.
A small improvement would have made it so much more useful. Example, it can activated to instantly arm a trap during combat but puts it on a cooldown, while passively traps are still armed after X secs.
But nah, traps are old fashion now.
These days, It’s all about bombs. Somehow we magically master the super secret technique of using bombs at point blank range and not getting a single scratch from doing so.
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I disagree with your invalid complaints.
They wrecked our class in WoTLK, They continued to wreck it during Cataclysm, they’ve spent years repeatedly overhauling it, gutting an entire spec and changing it from one style to another was just par for the course. Many of us hate it, and we don’t care about your opinion anymore than you obviously don’t care about ours.
From reading this, some of us obviously are capable of articulating our thoughts better than others.
That, and we have no control over what happens to the specs anymore than you do. You came hunting arguments and I’m sure you found plenty. Here’s one more opposite opinion to yours.