Stop trying to remove melee

Classes Hunter
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I very much get why some players want to play as a Dark Ranger and how they want access to the fantasy pertaining to them.
I agree though that, as far as the hunter class is concerned, the playstyle of/fantasy involving Dark Rangers is not a suitable option.

For multiple reasons.

First off, it’s not that it isn’t possible to implement such a spec. It’s more of a question if it should be done.

The whole fantasy behind Dark Rangers, is their backgrounds. It’s how they become Dark Rangers. Take this away by implementing a spec into for example the hunter class, and you would no longer actually have the fantasy of Dark Rangers.

Do this, and it will dilute what they are all about. And how they come to be.
Ofc you can add in a spec which contains abilities that have a connection to their theme. But that’s not the actual issue. Because Dark Rangers, aren’t just a fighting style/playstyle for us to have access to.

Dark Rangers become what they are based on what happens to them in life. Without that, you would not have a Dark Ranger.

Ofc there’s nothing that stops us from forgoing the actual fantasy in favor of just looking at the toolkit/theme of abilities. But my question then is: Do people want the fantasy of actual Dark Rangers? Or, do they just want something that is different to the current Hunter class?

For me personally, in both those cases, there are better ways to implement those things without it having any effect on Hunters themselves.

Because, as far as Hunters go, if there’s anything that should be brought into the class, it should be the spec that was taken away. It should be that playstyle and that fantasy which we had prior to Legion(ofc with a modern design which fits the current game).

But implementing some magic archer archetype, even with mechanics that somehow would play the same as how RSV played, it wouldn’t actually be RSV.
The mechanics on their own, does not make the fantasy. They are only part of it.

You mean in terms of what other players would want for their respective classes then?

Players will always ask for what they don’t already have. Same as in the case with us over here, asking for the return of RSV.

The difference here, to all other classes and to their development history, is that the Hunter class, is the only one which has flat out got an entire spec removed from it.

By that, I mean that we(hunters) are the only ones who went into Legion with a particular spec no longer existing, or any version of it.

Sure, some like to bring up how Warlocks were heavily changed as well, and that’s true. But they still have a post-Legion version of all their specs. We Hunters, don’t.
There is no version of RSV in existence.

Way to deflect there…
What you wrote there, isn’t the same thing.

There’s a big difference between removing character levels and with removing an existing playstyle.

Character levels are just numbers displayed next to our portraits.
Removing a level or several levels, will not actually affect how we play(while playing). Removing a playstyle/specialization, will, very much do just that.

I know that by writing “waste of player-time” you’re interpreting this as being about time spent playing the game. Which isn’t actually what this was about.
I’m talking about how players have followed the development of the class and have become invested in a particular fantasy provided to us. To then have it completely removed, even though no one was asking for it to happen.

You can remove character levels all you want and it wouldn’t really change a thing. We can still do everything we did prior to removing those levels, as far as the game and it’s content is concerned.

You cannot remove a spec/playstyle and still enjoy it afterwards.

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269

It’s not deflecting, you’re missing the point. When blizzard makes a change to the game, any change, which some players do not like or want, it is not blizzard wasting those players’ time. It doesn’t matter if it’s changing a spec, reworking classic zones in cataclysm, changing the talent system, a level or stat squish, whatever. Your personal investment in your preferred state of the game is meaningless to the situation; if it wasn’t, blizzard would have had to lock the game in one state years ago, because there is not one single player who can look at wow and say “I like every change that has ever been made to this game”.

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270

No, you’re the one that’s missing the point.

To make it as clear as I can:

It’s not about actual time spent playing nor what we’ve spent that time on.

It’s about the devs clearly showing that the changes they make(some) to particular classes, aren’t actually meant for the people playing those classes. They make changes that are for the most part, straight opposites to what the players who have, at the time, invested themselves into said class, want.

If I was the only one who liked/loved the RSV playstyle and everyone else was saying(or the common conception was) that the spec had to be changed, even in the eyes of most players, then I would’ve let this go.
Then the change to melee would have actually catered towards player demands/requests, and feedback.

But that was not the case. That’s not the reason for why RSV was changed. Not even close…

THAT, is why I call it a waste.

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271

Im not concerning myself with any other arguments here, but for you to say melee hunter doesnt fit fantasy or class identity is just wrong. It might not fit your idea of hunter, but the fantasy of using a spear or some such alongside ones pet is very much in line with many people’s idea of a hunter. Dont view something narrowly, especially fantasy archetypes, and then act like it’s objective and universal.

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272

Except all of that is entirely subjective; to me, and to many of the other fans of the change, it WAS meant for us, for people playing the class. You, even the majority not liking it doesn’t change that.

You say you would’ve let it go if you were alone in opposing the swap to melee, but can you honestly say with a straight face that you’d give in and accept something you dislike, just because the majority wants it? Because I wouldn’t; I could be literally the only melee hunter, and I would still insist that what I want has just as much merit as what the rotw wants. Especially when it’s something like this, which isn’t actually harming or advocating harming anyone.

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273

But he’s not wrong tho. Ranged attacks are the defining feature of the class. Use of the ranged weapon made us unique.

Hunter having a melee spec goes against everything this class was originally designed to be.

World of Warcraft Game Manual Page 84

The Hunter
The hunter is a unique class in World of Warcraft because it is primarily a ranged attacker . Even though other classes can learn to
use ranged weapons, none of them is as proficient in their deadly
use as the hunter. To support the hunter’s ranged attacks, this
class has two main advantages: a loyal pet and a wide array of
movement-restricting spells.

Class Abilities
The hunter is a combat class, like the rogue and warrior, but whereas those classes rely on melee attacks, the hunter relies on ranged
power . It does have spellcasting ability, but the hunter’s spells are
supportive ones, used to enhance the hunter’s natural abilities.
To complement its ranged attacks, the hunter has a number of
spells that imbue its gun or bow with additional damage, damage
over time, or other magical effects.

Hunter Pets
Pets are a key component of the hunter class. After the hunter
gains some experience he can learn to tame the wild beasts of
Azeroth. Using the beast taming spell, the hunter can select a
beast in the wild and turn it into a loyal companion. The hunter’s pet can then attack the hunter’s target and keep it occupied while the hunter engages in ranged attacks.

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274

GamesCom 2017 World of Warcraft: Legion Patch 7.3 Interview with Game Director Ion Hazzikostas

We knew with Survival Hunter that we were making a niche spec. It is a melee spec for a class that has traditionally being range. I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class, and so we don’t necessarily expect them or want them to feel like they should be changing; but for new players picking up that class, it is an intriguing option

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275

Kazenia above here just linked the very thing which defines my statement as not being subjective but being taken directly from answers given by the devs(GD) themselves.

He flat out stated that they did not make that particular change to cater towards current hunters/what the majority of current, and past, hunters actually pick(ed) this class for.

I’ll link it as well just to clarify

GamesCom 2017 World of Warcraft: Legion Patch 7.3 Interview with Game Director Ion Hazzikostas

We knew with Survival Hunter that we were making a niche spec. It is a melee spec for a class that has traditionally being range. I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class, and so we don’t necessarily expect them or want them to feel like they should be changing; but for new players picking up that class, it is an intriguing option

With the above, we have an official statement that the changes done to RSV and to this Class, weren’t really meant for players playing this class.

They did not make these changes in an attempt to improve this class as a whole, in the eyes of current hunters/the majority of active hunters.

The irony is that, contrary to what he said in that interview, all those of us who played RSV and liked it for being a ranged spec, we were actually forced to switch specs as what they gave us instead, was a melee spec.

I know he was probably referring to BM hunters or MM hunters and that they shouldn’t feel like they had to switch to a melee spec. Which makes it even worse really. Because in everything the devs have said(and done), it just highlights how ignorant they were towards what actual RSV players wanted out of the class.

I already have.

In the beginning I, like many others, was arguing for MSV to be reverted back to it’s ranged predecessor.

What I’m doing now, is advocating/petitioning for this class to be given an additional spec option(meaning RSV in the form of a 4th spec) purely so that none of us will be left out.

Just so that current BM players can keep their focus on what it is.
MM players can keep their focus on being sharpshooters.
MSV players can keep their semi-melee spec(adaptive ranger playstyle)

And, most importantly, so that all those of us who had the playstyle which we liked so much, can get that back as well, in an updated form just like all others specs. Meaning RSV.

I even took it far enough to come up with a complete concept of my own for what RSV as a stand-alone spec in the modern game could look like. A concept which doesn’t infringe on the core features of the other hunter specs.

Like I said before: If we are serious about trying to convince the devs of why a spec such as RSV should return, why it warrants being a separate addition to what we already have, we have to provide them with our thoughts on what we would like for it to have/do.

LD Travis (can’t remember the last name) told us that their decision for removing RSV was based on them thinking that “it was just MM but with different arrows, or traps”.

Even though I don’t believe that statement for a second, it is actually all we have to go on. Which means that, if we want RSV back, we have to show them that it can have a unique playstyle/focus. It can be about different core mechanics compared to that of MM. It can provide different strengths/weaknesses compared to that of MM which is also a ranged weapon-based spec for this class.

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276

Shockingly, just like “hunters are primarily a ranged class” does not mean ONLY a ranged class (newsflash: they’re still primarily a ranged class), “a lot of existing hunters are all hunters because they want to be ranged” does not mean “ALL hunters are hunters because they want to be ranged”. The majority picking hunter to be ranged does not mean that all hunters did so for that reason, and swapping the spec to melee was done for those of us who aren’t in the legolas crowd, those of us who felt the specs had been too homogenized, in addition to being done as an attempt to open up a new playstyle to draw new blood.

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277

Plus “it’s the way it was originally” is never an argument for something, but rather against change.

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278

I would agree.

Hence why I prefer to speak for a solution which benefits us all.

Keep in mind though, change for the sake of it, or change for something which doesn’t actually cater towards what most players want, isn’t a healthy way to go about with class development.
It’s in such a case, better to work towards adding things, rather than changing/taking things away.

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279

Yea, see the problem with that comes when you and others keep saying “most people” without actually knowing what a true majority wants. If you really want to see change you all should stop trying to artificially inflate the importance of your argument by trying to make it seem as though everybody agrees with you. If you are upset that is understandable and you are certainly welcome to express that, but to impose your feelings on an imagined Collective is just a bad approach to getting what you want imho.

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280

Honestly mate, why do you think that players choose to play as a ranged class?

Because they hate ranged combat?

You think that hundreds of thousands of players pick a ranged class and sticks with it for expansion after expansion while secretly hoping that it will suddenly become a melee class?

We’re not trying to “artificially inflate the importance of our arguments by trying to make it seem as though everybody agrees with us”.

We, or in this case, I, base my arguments on the fact that this class was purely intended(by design) to focus on ranged combat using a ranged weapon with a pet as a personal companion from the beginning of Vanilla right up until the announcements of Legion features.

And, despite that pure focus on ranged combat, so many players still chose this class.

I ask you again:

Do you honestly think that any hunter who picked this class prior to Legion, did so because they secretly hated ranged combat based on using a ranged weapon, and was hoping that it would be turned into a melee class in the future? Or, that they picked(and kept with) the class and it’s ranged specs for so long while hoping that it would eventually have a spec overhauled into a melee spec for that matter?

I’m not saying that every single player agrees with my arguments.
I’m saying that the most likely scenario, is that, prior to Legion, the class and it’s design was meant for players who liked ranged combat(specifically combat that included a ranged weapon).

And as evident by official statements and by past class descriptions, the devs/GD thought that as well.

What does the above mean?

Does it mean that a melee spec option has no place within this class when looking at future development?
Ofc it has(if you ask me).

BUT, what I’m also saying, is that based on this class intended design and where it’s been heading for over a decade, it is fair to say that:

Making changes and removing specs in favor of implementing something that is the direct opposite to former design, is not intended for most of the players who plays that class.

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281

The hunter is a combat class, like the rogue and warrior, but whereas those classes rely on melee attacks, the hunter relies on ranged power

It means that you should be attacking from range! And if you’re not trying to attack from range, than YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!

Your personal reasons for creating a hunter are irrelevant. You chose Hunter. You signed up for ranged combat. Don’t play ranged classes if you don’t like ranged combat. It’s that simple.

Good for the whole dozen of ya!

Meanwhile the spec got completely revamped after 1 expansion and turned into a gimped BM clone.

Which is Just what WoW needed, another melee spec. /s

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282

Flag this thread, make it locked.

Neither side will acknowledge they are wrong, neither side will sit down.

The chat here has gone far off from original post and turning into a fiery war between two clan. So lets stop replying to these threads, dont make new ones and post positive stuff about hunters.

283

Nice telling us what to do. How about we continue to give Blizz feedback about how big of a mistake removing ranged SV from the game was*. I’ll post positive stuff about hunters, once I get all my hunters back!

*FYI - my ‘proof’ that is was a big mistake? Here we are with this still a hot topic years down the road.

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284

This isnt feedback at all… all this is a " I lost ma stuff, give my stuff back." and the other side “haha you mad, but you not getting ya stuff back” Your reply clearly highlights it too. There’s 0 suggestion here, only fighting.

So lock thread and move on to positive stuff.

That isnt proof, the same 3 trolls can always reply on a thread or use alts. The forums brings a lot more negative players and hardly represent the WoW community.

Make it a better place and be more positive.

285

Sounds like feedback to me. What do you call all the threads complaining about the ability pruning? FEEDBACK.

And guess what, they listened. Shadowlands will return several abilities we lost. Hopefully, they won’t stop there.

aka TROLLING

Ghorak has posted his ideas for a 4th spec only about a million times.

You’re clearly not paying attention.

Practice what you preach, brother.

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286

Sounds like I have to repeat what I said ?

287

People asking for RSV(any spec back) are providing feedback, even though you’re not agreeing with it.

May I remind you about my own suggestions which I have provided more than once?

These forums are meant for discussions and for feedback. That naturally tends to have people post topics that can be viewed as being negative.

There isn’t really any point in bringing up stuff that you like on these forums. Unless it’s meant as a counter-argument to something that another player has posted.

We’re here to voice our concerns/thoughts about things we would like for to be changed or added to the class.

That is exactly what we are doing.
I, and some others are also posting specific suggestions, regarding design elements and abilities, for what we want.

Asking people to stop providing feedback targeting parts of the game which they aren’t satisfied with just so that you don’t have to see negative posts/posts which you disagree with is kind of selfish, don’t you think?

Especially since you have no problem whatsoever to constantly post about how you don’t want the class to have a 4th spec option just because of the time required to produce it. Meanwhile, your precious MSV which have seen not one, but two major reworks in just as many expansions.
And, came at the expense of another playstyle which even more players preferred.

But god forbid anything in the slightest affecting the development of MSV.

He does, sometimes, just that he doesn’t care about that side of the class.

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