I think we can all agree that what we have now is pretty horrible. The arena of yesteryear is very different than now. There were a lot of different viable compositions and the gameplay revolved around counter-comping and skill based mirror matches whereas nowadays in arena we have a handful of useful comps (a lot of that as mentioned is predicated on the lack of healer spec viability in high end arena) and the exact same issue is seen in M+. Almost no diversity in composition. That’s a class balance issue as far as I’m concerned. Having a meta is fine. Having a meta so horribly balanced that there’s literally only 1 option is garbage.
Oh totally, up until mop I was always really into pvp, mostly on this mage (no I wasnt a pom/pyro mage those guys were losers). But if you look at something like a BC resto druid who had all the tools, all the power, you could at least respect them because you knew a good one when you saw them… and even if it effected the top of that wing of WoW, the classes overall were let to flourish. I think classic will show that even despite broken balance, fun classes are fun, especially when that balance doesn’t effect most people.
“But Searik it doesn’t effect people now!” True. But the top content is a LOT harder then is was, because previously it focused on prepared work instead of live work. What I mean by that is you needed to unlock the fight, prepare your gear for it, prepare your party for it then go in. Now sure everything is easier to get into, but you’d have to be crazy to think that fights then could stand up to fights now when it comes to difficulty. Again I think Blizzard needs to think hard what kind of game WoW is and should be. Right now I can’t say its an RPG. While that upsets me thats fine but I wish they’d make another game if they want one that they can push into esports since hots/sc didnt work out.
I feel like I’m in this weird position where I agree with the hardcore group in that effort should equal reward, but im also with the casual group in that content shouldn’t focus on the top. Right now I feel like WoW is designed to try and please both ends of the spectrum with those left in the middle, or at least those longtime fans who joined for the RPG aspects, in the dust.
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Which is why I think if they want to include pvp as a serious avenue; the rock/paper/scissors method works best. It can counter any unforseen meta by people shifting to counter it. It allows then people adjusting to try and counter that, which in the end I think mixes things up. Even the people not playing the meta then at least have a chance against those preparing to fight the meta. Then, undoing a lot of pruning, you allow for counter play through utility which muddies up the ‘advantages’.
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I don’t need to disprove a made up statement.
First, Blizzard doesn’t release sub numbers so you can’t even prove they are in decline.
Secondly, even if they were in decline and this maybe the case since the published subs number of subs have been declining steadily since WotLK.
So, I could just as easily make up a statement and say the subs have been declining since WotLK because Blizzard focuses too much attention on raids. This statement is no different than yours.
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That’s exactly my opinion on the topic, and it’s the issue both in arena and in M+. M+ diversity is far worse, but the problem and solution is the same. Don’t mistake that as meaning that certain specs don’t need damage increases, there are some obvious specs that are bad at performance, but we’re not seeing the combo factor of different specs coordinating together like we did in arena in the past and that combo factor is almost nonexistent in M+.
I could care less about templates because I’ve always gotten the broken PVE gear I needed easily since I started playing again. Stating something like “the same people who complained about…” doesn’t reflect the playerbase as accurately as you claim.
What this is missing is the fact that there used to be something called resilience, where the gear you needed to PVP with came from PVP… the gear you needed to PVP with was bad in PVE… So basically you were able to gear for your content of choice.
But now we have PVE gear like the Diamond Laced Refracting Prism somehow being best in slot for a Rogue in PVP yet a Rogue could never ever get it without someone trading it to them, since it was meant as a tank trinket.
The templates argument isn’t as important as you’re making it out to be, it’s a basic game balancing issue that pisses off the pvp community that allows for things like the Opulence trinket to be BiS for classes that can’t even get it. I even have seen high rated MAGES equipping it for PVP and it doesn’t even have intellect on it!
They went directly from resilience to templates, then back to non templates but with scaling… so they are basically experimenting and failing miserably at it.
That’s just it though, the playerbase that doesn’t do this is just the casual playerbase derping around collecting things. I used to do that tbh. They will not be effected by having high ilvl gear for no work or not. However every game needs an endgame to work towards… when people stop caring about that games become stale and die off…
Some of us don’t want WoW to die off but to the casual playerbase… they wouldn’t see it until it bites them in the face.
Yes but I’m not talking about you specifically, I’m talking about the community in general, more specifically the community here on the forums.
That’s not missing, that’s just a previous iteration of feedback that said, “pvp would be better with…” that died because of player complaints about it after it was implemented. I’ve played WoW since the open beta. It caused exactly the same issues as having huge ilvl gaps due to people getting better gear for pvp in pve and then going and stomping the folks who spent the bulk of their time pvp’ing. That being anyone wanting to join into pvp was so far behind the curve that they might as well not bother and then if you wanted to do both you had to do double the content. Which resulted in more complaints that ended up changing to all gear is for both pve and pvp now.
I’m aware of this stupidity. If it’s not on a drop table for someone the item shouldn’t even activate for them when it’s equipped. That’s my opinion anyways.
My point there is just that that was a suggestion from the community that was then relentlessly attacked by the community and it was removed. Same with resilience. None of these things have happened in a vacuum.
All predicated on feedback from players about what they don’t like about the system. Which leads to my point. People aren’t actually serious when they point at things they don’t like. They don’t like the perceived reason they lose, and if it’s pve gear in pvp they point at that, so then resilience is implemented, and then people complained about gear not being useful and having to farm twice the gear and that’s the reason they’re losing, so they went to templates, and then people complained about templates and said that’s why they were losing, so they removed templates and added scaling, so now people complain about that. Blizzard isn’t randomly trying things. They’re literally taking feedback from people about what they don’t like, trying to address it, and finding out that in fact wasn’t what people didn’t like.
Citation required. I’ve seen games die because the competitive gamers were catered to (Wildstar). I’ve never seen a game die because the majority of the players were catered to. I don’t believe this claim for half a second. In fact, EverQuest is still up and running, it’s still profitable enough that they’re releasing content for it. I think that demonstrates the power of the casuals that, as you put it are ‘derping around collecting things.’
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I like the idea of challenging content for high ilvl gear, but i also feel that having solo content that fits this model (like the mage tower) should be introduced.
I actually think the number of sources for gear is ok, and could possibly even be increased - but the difficulty is they component to tweak.
And no one (at least on my part) said they weren’t. Whether or not they see it as difficult or it actually is difficult (which it is) the “debate” and/or “discussion” is geared toward why they think it hurts them that people, whom they never have to deal with in any capacity, get high level gear doing something else.
The direction in which you want to go to present evidence is only saying ‘they think it’s difficult because it is difficult’ as a response to the question of who cares where or how players you don’t even know get their gear?
If they are doing whatever content they are doing and enjoy it, and are not doing anything interfering to anyone who gets high level gear doing other content, then the complaint is toward the area of ‘I don’t want to see someone getting something I personally don’t think they should have’.
It has nothing to do with their preferred content being made less fun. It’s simply an attempt to keep others who do other things (whether they be hard or easy) from getting any kind of quality rewards.
So, as far as I’ve seen in the multitude of threads on this tangent, no one on that side of the discussion can say why it has anything to do with their enjoyment of the game other than to lord something over someone that doesn’t even know they exist.
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There are those challenges should you choose to seek it. The 2k in PvP and the cutting edges you already mentioned you do not have. If you’re solely after the challenge why aren’t you going for those?
Not everyone does want a challenge though and there should be a game for those types too.
With this statement ,let me give an example from my experience leading raids.I have noticed the there are players vent on sabotaging raids and always the ones that come in groups.So there those that just do interfere in the game either for trolling or gold prospecting .These are the one also complain the most on every little detail.it is no wonder raiding is a pain. Do these stay for a reward sure they do they leave at the last boss and if you don’t complete the raid before they do it’s a lose.
I’ve heard that the population of wow players that use the forums isn’t higher than 5% from my brother who got me into the game ![:laughing:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/laughing.png?v=6" ":laughing:")
Might read ur thing later but I’ve been derping around not paying attention and i need to go to bed. Good talk though folks have a good night
That isnt howna debate works. You need tonprove your assertion first.
I just want to clarify that this is the statement I agree with fully. It seems very biased and hypocritical to offer multiple gear vendors for PvE currency when there are no equivalent offerings for the PvP crowd. You can farm WQ’s, mythics/M+, and pug raids wayyyy more quickly and efficiently than PvP nowadays for azerite and other slots. It only took me about 1.5 weeks to get my warrior from 110 to 120 and 397 ilvl with a 44 neck. Next reset he will be able to purchase his first 415 azerite piece from the vendor. I empathize with the people who play PvP exclusively.
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Now,he did say also they people would be able to find them,which is an excuse not to have them.It’s easy to find them on our server just fellow the crowd.
Just saw a Bellular video about the recent bans that puts this thread in a new light. The bans were for real money trading. Bellular said people will pay 2000 dollars for a Dazalor run.
No wonder there are complaints about noobs getting ilvl 400 gear. No wonder some players lobby hard to get the game tuned hard mode. No wonder subs are down but profits are up.
It is ok to buy 2000 dollars worth of tokens for a Dazalor run. WoW has become pay to win. You’re 15 dollar sub doesn’t mean much.
What you are saying is you are butt-hurt that someone gets gear as good as yours and they did not use your method to get it. Raiding is the most efficient way to gear but it is not the only way. Stop worrying about what everyone else has and worry about yourself. They have no impact on you.
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Who said it was “Good gear?”. The stats are predetermined. Also, you are going to have to work long and hard to be able to upgrade that gear. It’s not going to be BIS, and you know it. For all the 200 people who liked your post, there are 1000 people who actually think Blizzard is listening for once.
The gear is pretty low to start out with, like 380 I think it was, then you will have to work and save up tokens to upgrade that gear at a cost of 5 ilvl per upgrade. It’s going to take those people weeks and maybe months to get to 430 ilvl. I’m sure you think you deserve something special, but if you want your way I think all those titan and warforged pieces you’re wearing should go away. You got higher level gear for doing nothing by your own admission.
I am far more concerned that Blizzard has put the game into a place where no one talks to one another anymore. That blizzard has mandated what fun is to everyone. I think the Devs should go watch Ready Player One a few times because that movie really sets the tone for why Wow has fallen to what it has become.
Because that’s not how you get said gear. You’re being extremely disingenuous. Also, it has not “Always” worked that way. Maybe like 3 xpacs ago it did.
That’s not how it works. The gear is lower ilvl and then you have to pay to get it upgraded just like how Argus worked. You are basically working and paying to titan forge. See he thinks he’s special while they are paying with their time and effort to titan forge he thinks killing a boss is more valuable than the hours and hours of grinding super casuals will have to do to obtain the same ilvl gear with crappy stats.
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