Oh boy, another thread of the same group of M+ apologists posting 30+ replies of the same comments we have heard over and over.
Look at the top commentators, same people over and over in anything M+ related.
This forum is an echo chamber of a minority of very loud sweaty players.
Itâs always the same 4 or 5 people. They should get together and run some low keys. Iâd love to see the results.
More than a shot, you get your guaranteed vault drop.
I said if there were slow runs id do them. Then thr M+ apologist brigade came in and tried to gaslight 2 years of experience by saying there is no war in ba sing se.
Take whatever position you want but its going to create an ever shrinking pool of players. Cross faction was a necessity.
Dude, we get it, that +2 Lower that took you 41:55 was probably super stressful, since the 288 BM hunter you invited didnât carry as hard as you hoped. But really, itâs not the timer. Your group was plenty geared enough to finish much faster if you just did mechanics.
If you look outside these forums, the sentiment for M+ is pretty negative. Iâve seen so many people in YT comments, fansites and Reddit making comments about how they quit the game because of the focus on e-sports.
This happened with Overwatch too. There were leaks from the OW team that many of the developers were unhappy about the push to make OW into an e-sport. They said that the bulk of the players for OW were casual players and that catering the game towards this demographic made more sense.
WoW is in the same boat, most Wow players are casual players that probably have zero desire to engage in these high stress competitive systems.
Even the top raiding guilds despise M+, Iâve heard them say over and over again in their streams.
Stop asking for removal of content people like instead of asking for additional modes you like. Thatâs toxic.
I dunno about that, but then search algorithms tend to reinforce the things you search for by feeding you more of it, so.
Thing is, raiding has become just as much of an esport as M+ has.
Yeah, no, nobody gives a damn what top raiding guilds have to say about M+. Let them mald in their little corner because they have this compulsion to play the game at the level they do and as a result do anything and everything they have to do to gear.
Some of the people in that bracket donât like doing things other than raids to gear for raids, which I get, but that doesnât mean I give a damn about their opinion on content they donât like.
I understand people feel this way, but I think itâs great that casual players can have such a lucrative return for 5 man content. I almost never time an m+ run and have blast just playing with friends in them, and getting the vault thatâs way higher than the effort I put in is a huge perk.
Iâm an apologist for liking the content? Thatâs a take.
You already said you donât like doing M+, you said you wonât do it enough to make friends to do it consistently with in a manner you like, but weâre gaslighting you somehow?
M+ didnât create the necessity for cross-faction. The gameâs age created that necessity, and it was necessary for all content (Rated PVP, Raiding and M+) because all three were having issues with consistent participation, leaving some Alliance players stuck with fewer options.
A lot of people (including me) like M+ on a timer and ever rising difficulty of it, the problem is you get loot out of it. M+ should not become a way of farming ilvl, it should solely be for cosmetics/achievement etc, like challenge mode was for mop and wod.
How do you explain the popularity of Classic then?
Age isnât the problem lol.
only other game developers can find a way to make stuff challenging without a timer.
We have literally no metric for Classicâs popularity due to cross-pollinated subs between Retail and Classic, but Classic has this funny tendency of emptying out a month or two after content drops, just like Retail does.
Neither Retail nor Classic are pulling 12 million concurrent subscribers in, and the last time that this game did that was during its peak in Wrath, which it has never matched or even come close to again.
So yeah, I feel pretty comfortable in saying a lot of the gameâs issues today have to do with age, among other things. If youâre trying to imply that M+ is part of that decline, Iâve got news- the game was already well into its decline when M+ was introduced, and Legion was actually one of the few resurgences WoW has had in recent years. Same expansion when M+ was introduced, so draw what conclusions you will.
I mean, the timer isnât the only thing that gets added when you plug a keystone in, but thereâs nothing forcing you to meet the timer either. 
Oh look, Jayawen comes in to bash M+ yet again. The same M+ bashers posting 30+ replies of uninformed drivel because they had a tank berate them one time about doing 3k DPS in a +12 key.
Funny enough, the fact some people enjoy M+ and actually understand it enough to challenge and dispell the uninformed drivel means you canât have your little echo chamber of M+ hating.
Whatâs not slow about a 38 minute Junkyard ?
Even if we did, if you look at the top raiders, they all have IO way above KSM, meaning theyâre pushing IO for no actual tangible benefit other than IO.
Um, the developers have said in numerous interviews that Classic popularity among the players was a huge surprise to them.
No MMO is going to pull those kind of numbers anymore. That doesnât mean interest in the WoW ip has diminished.
Yes, the introduction of M+ contributed, but wasnât the only reason for the decline.
Iâm sorry, age still isnât as much of a factor as people seem to think on these forums.
The team that took over WoW in Legion actively made changes that fundamentally changed WoW from MMORPG into some weird hybrid Action RPG that feels something more akin to Diablo style game.
Personally, Classicâs success has been a huge reeducation for the current developers. They have said so in many interviews.
Btw, if the formula they have been using since Legion has been successful, why are they changing DF so much?
No, M+ is propping up Retail at this point. People are done with raiding as an end game.
People run Classic raids as if they were M+, the whole world buff Meta in the original classic didnât clue you in ? Private server crowds have been speed running the content for more than a decade.
What is changing exactly ? M+ is still there.
Thatâs not a metric, hate to break it to you.
The definition of MMO has been redefined over the years, and weâre not talking about the IP, weâre talking about the game itself. There may be more interest in the IP than can be accurately measured, but that isnât reflected in what little information we have about the actual metrics of playerbase and player engagement.
How so?
This game is approaching its 20th birthday within a couple of years. Yes, age is a pretty significant factor.
Changing DF how? What specific âformulaâ from Legion? How does WoW feel like a Diablo-style game to you?
You basically just vomited a bunch of stuff onto the screen without qualifying or clarifying any of it.
This just isnât true. If you have random deaths along the way, take a sub-optimal route, wipe once on a boss, you wonât make the timer. So sure, you can pull at a slow, steady pace and make timers easily⊠if you play perfectly.