Nah we don’t know what we’re talking about. It doesn’t matter that I’m in a US top 150 guild, 4/8 mythic, got AOTC on week 1, have 2500+ IO.
We clearly don’t know what holy paladin is capable of. 
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Holy paladin WAS service-able before. The issue with hpal is we required complete knowledge of the damage profile since we have basically no reactive healing and are almost entirely pro-active. Other classes are able to drop 1/3 of their mana into a problem but we only have cd’s to answer this.
This means people like you and me who research and figure out exactly what to expect are able to survive but the more average player will likely struggle with this as they are also playing with average players and they cannot fix problems by just dropping more mana into it.
LoD is probably the most pathetic excuse of a heal and exemplifies my example of crap and its one of our two spenders, they need to take some of the power out of boosting spells or cd’s that machine gun spam holy shock and bake them into some base healing.
I love the holy playstyle sadly and am pretty dang casual this expansion, as I’ve only gone up to +9’s pug style and am raiding on my mage instead, but I can’t help but feel like the current state of holy is because of all of these stupid band-aid buffs and nerfs which turns our base healing lines into the absolute crap.
I’m not saying either of you are wrong, but I’m trying to say you both could be right in different ways depending on where you stand in capability.
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It’s the price we pay for being one of the more “unique” healers. They are allergic to the notion of streamlining the spec to make it balanced and instead designed it around gimmicks that are constantly at odds with each other and makes the overall balance greatly dependent on what content is out.
Like, strictly speaking, we have 4 heals that do the exact same thing; heal a single person for X amounts (Holy Light, Flash of Light, Holy Shock, Word of Glory).
These abilities don’t interact with each other outside of a proc (Holy Shock proccing Infusion) but then the spells don’t really change. They just hit harder or with a faster cast time. This can be great in an era where spot heals are king, but as soon as aoe damage take over, suddenly you’re playing a game of “who’s going to bleed out” while hoping you didn’t use Virtue+Wings too early because you’ll have no way to heal through it otherwise. (Extreme example i know but you get the gist).
Not saying Paladins need another bloody rework but it would be grand if we weren’t designed so stupidly at a fundamental level.
I don’t even know how much of an effect these current nerfs will be in the end. Maybe we will be fine. But I believe I’ve stated, we’ve seen this before. Personally speaking I don’t feel like leveling up another healer to enjoy WoW again if we keep getting these random aura nerfs that make us overly reliant on rotating Cooldowns again.
3 Likes
Thing is, we really don’t need another rework. It’s just tuning numbers. Disc priest used to have this issue, so they separated attonment healing in Raid vs M+. With Herald of the sun we need something along these lines (well we have, but its bugged…).
There is a issue this time around though. We don’t have Daybreak anymore, AM is a lil bit nerfed, Tyr’s +HoD is nerfed as well. We don’t have enough cooldowns to make up like in DF if this happens again.
Honestly even number tuning is more or less putting lipstick on a pig.
There’s only so much that can be done purely by numbers and numbers are always getting changed.
By design, Paladins exist on a knife’s edge almost constantly. Number too high? Spec becomes absolutely dominate. Too low, its dumpster trash. I’d like for spec to just be designed well.
I don’t know, maybe having a healing spec designed around building and spending was a bad idea in hindsight.
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Yes this exactly, our cd’s are ungodly strong and outside of these windows we are elemental shaman healing levels. Holy light needs 190% inc from procs to even be used. We need some of our strength baked into our base kit, pooling 5 hp and using lod (lol) twice during a virtue window shouldn’t move bars by only 6-8%.
Having holy shock despite being near 50% crit chance not crit 5 times in a row can be devastating since it does laughable healing otherwise and it doesn’t proc infusion to boost a holy light by 150% (really dumb it needs boosted this much to be viable)
Can they tune our numbers so we’re viable again? Yeah they can but it’s not addressing the real issue with the class imo. But at least we’re not holy priests.
2 Likes
Blizzard bringing back Holy Power for Holy (and Prot) is never not going to be one of their strangest decision. Because surprise, surprise! They immediately run into the same exact issue they were having with it back in the days which prompted them to get rid of it in the first place.
In the 2 expansions since they brought back Holy Power, Holy Paladins have gotten 4 reworks. Makes you think huh?
Oh well, i think we are stuck with it for good this time.
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Exactly this. Everyone and their grandma pointed this out during Beta with how busted Herald was at the time.
And now it seems we are borderline near where we started, with our abilities every week doing less and less because of our Raid Performance.
Starting next week Hpal will be the weakest Healer HPS wise by a solid 8-9% compared to the second worst. That’s the same difference between the second last place and the the highest HPS healer in a dungeon environment. Our DPS is also tied in last place.
Revert Holy Pally to how it was with the BFA Corruption gear - problem solved. All wings, all fun, all the time baby
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I’ll be honest, I prefer TWW Beta holy paladin but its probably too strong relatively to other current healers. Think it was one of the best iterations of the spec in a while, better than Ashen Hallow Hpal, better than glimmer BFA Hpal, better than 10.1.5 DF Hpal. Of course this is only my opinion,
Which other versions of Hpal were the best compared to the current state of the spec?
Congrats on being the minority of Hpals to do mythic and farming high keys. Majority of players are not on that level, and that’s not anything to be ashamed about. Thats why these nerfs are crazy, because most people are not playing Hpal to that degree or level.
Also not sure why the history of Hpal in DF has to do with the nerfs they’re doing now. Like congratulations, you played Hpal longer, here’s your award. How does that help us now from being nerfed into the ground
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It lets you easily see the pattern and know what to expect, which gives us all a good place to argue against the nerfs because we know exactly what the results will be.
Like right now, we’ve received 11% aura nerfs, any more and our base kit will 100% be too weak to function. We know this because we’ve seen it.
3 Likes
What Daiza said. I was here for months asking for buffs to Hpal and giving Blizzard Feedback since S2 of DF.
I’ve still played Hpal during S3/S4, where the class was borderling unplayable and literally 20% behind every healer.
I’ve detailed how it was back then, because the rework Hpal got in TWW beta was supossed to fix the issues 10.1.5 and the consecutive nerfs made apparent on Hpal.
Back then that was a 22%-25% aura nerf. They backtracked on everything and removed at least 1/3 ( or nerfed to unplayable state) of our buttons to make sure Holy Shock and our spenders were strong again.
All of this is at risk of being thrown into the trash now. A second rework in just 1 year that goes to the dumpster at this rate.
I dont think 11% nerf now is as badly as S3-S4 DF Hpal, where we also were the worst healer as well, because the gap used to be bigger, but doesn’t justify remaining silent this time around. Specially since this is a an unwarranted nerf for m+, and specially because last time, Hpal was left in a bordeline unplayable state for 2 whole seasons.
This is blizzard repeating the same mistakes all over again.
I’m not here to brag about what I’ve achieved or not as Hpal, but there are issues that only become apparent after playing at a certain difficulty level, for example, when Holy paladin had mana issues a few months back, people here where saying that was a skill issue, but the max key they had timed was aa 6.
I know to a decent level how the class works and how to use it. I was defending the state of Hpal before but I cant now.
11% is enough of a nerf to bring down a functional class to the bottom of the pile, any more and the class just stops working all together.
sure you’ve seen it before. But these nerfs aren’t based on anything that’s concrete except among a dozen top level players. If they’re willing to do an 11% nerf for a dozen people. I doubt writing on the forums that we’ve seen these nerfs before is going to do much.
It just make them sound like the people who get mad that other people discovered their niche band and they want to feel like more of a true fan. It does nothing for the conversation except make people want to disagree with you.
The forums is all we got to give feedback, and maybe reddit (where there’s already another post on Hpal nerfs as well).
So what do you suggest then? Not providing any data on the current season or previous seasons to give the devs feedback? Not asking for the devs to make the same mistakes they did 1 year ago again?
We are here trying to improve the state of the class, afterall.
2 Likes
pretty sure you can give feedback to improve without invalidating someone else’s experiences because they didn’t play Hpal in whatever season you think they have to in order to have a valid opinion.
so maybe in order to make Hpal better you should listen to other people’s ideas, else, quite frankly you’re no better than the devs.
We’re all here in the conversation, we all care enough to go to the paladin Forums to try and find a solution to get the devs to stop nerfing us into the ground. i dont think we need to pull the ‘i’ve been her since XX which you clearly haven’t’ in order to improve a spec in the present. 
It’s also very clear that the only reason Hpal is getting a nerf is because of one talent that does raid wide healing, and instead of nerfing those numbers to make them comparable to other raid wide heals, they’re doing % based nerfs. Which is crazy, i dont think any conversation is going to make the devs say “We want Hpals in this content” because they’re clearly showing us they don’t want us to play this content.
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visible confusion
I’m confused now.
Everyone, literally everyone, agrees this extra 5% nerf makes no sense. Me and Azryel are making it very clear this is looking similar S2 where they just kept throwing on aura nerfs over and over until the spec stops functioning and are advocating, loudly, that this is bad a terrible way to solve the “We think Hpal is too strong” problem they believe exists.
Im not sure what you want honestly? Us to not give feedback based on what we’ve already experienced? Just give up and reroll? Make endless doomposts about how over it is without any substance except “Blizz hates us?”.
3 Likes
The only time we said people here was wrong was when paladin was 11% stronger than on next reset.
Before Flameshaper was destroying Mythic Raiding, Hpal was clearly ahead in numbers in Raid and in M+ was the second or third best pick. Data was supporting this, yet we have people here on these same forums like Socially saying it was terrible and the worst healer since day 1 of TWW. This was simply not true. TWW launch and Beta Hpal was a much refined version, but with weaker utility, than S1 DF Hpal.
Not anymore, though, and we have pointed out why. 11% is enough to bring down a dominant meta spec to middle of the pack. Or a middle of the pack tier to F tier. This is closer to the second.
Exactly, you also stated this. Fix herald’s Dawnligh bug in raid to nerf HPS performance there and not affect either M+ performance or our core kit power, which in turn, makes LS even weaker than before
There’s a good reason why this is relevant and why its one of the main issues currently with the spec, and we wanted the devs to properly tune around this, because of our past experiences and the knowledge of the spec we have.
Honestly, I dont think there’s a single soul that wasn’t confused looking at this latest tuning pass for us.
There is another thing here that will be bad going forward too.
More than 70% of the top 100 IO healers are Rshamans currently. Pugging without a premade group will be really difficult for the average player going forward.
I just can’t figure out what they are looking at when deciding to nerf. Mythic logs are so few this time around are you really going to balance off the under 100hpally logs for mythic? Heroic hpal is strait middle of the pack on every fight and doesn’t jump above 3rd place on one of the fights and is 5-6 best on the rest. i really don’t care if herald is bugged or not we arn’t even doing good hps compared to other classes, this just doesn’t make a bit of sense. Now in m+ we are going to struggle even more than we do now, the class lives and dies with virtue and wings, my as well be afk half the time
2 Likes