Spy Classic Addon needs to go

[Treelover-benediction]

A prepared duel is far different than WPvP, how on earth do you think it is viable to compare the two? There is a reason there are tier lists for best class for duels, for battlegrounds, for WPvP, for group play, for duos, for trips.

You are arbitrarily relating duels and WPvP as if they are the same. WPvP is chaos, in terms of what happens, how many players are involved, if npc’s are involved, and all sorts of other factors. It is not some 1v1 tournament system.

Trying to remove the dynamic nature and chaos of WPvP to turn it into some sterile environment where everyone can see everyone and everyone is alerted to everything is trying to make the game easy mode, which kills it.

The point is that the addon hasnt introduced anything you wouldn’t have done in PvP somewhere else.
This is the sequence of the convo:

• You complain that classes/players respond to your presence & that you “have” to play around the fact players might know you’re around.
• I put out ways on how to deal with people who are smart enough to pay attention (aka patience) - using similar ways you would in a more confined area such as a duel, aka 1v1 fighting.

Those teir lists don’t change with this addon btw. The difference with wPvP and duel is that they consider that you have the space you need to move. Duels restrict you to a radius. Druids arn’t as good in duels as wPvP because we can’t run away, not because the enemy knows we’re coming in duels.

I’m curious as to what you mean by more dynamic? Because what you’re saying is you want everyone (or close to) to be 100% unaware you’re around. That’s not wanting wPvP to be more dynamic because there’s no feedback from the other player on the stepup.

The addon makes things more dynamic. You have the extra facet of trying to figure out what they know by their behavior. The big question - do they know you’re coming for them? How do you change your tactic based on what you think they think. If you didnt have the ability to know who was around you - you wouldn’t get that, it would be less dyanmic, more sterile.

[Treelover-benediction]

Regardless of level, this uses a third party, instead of using the mechanics provided. to remove the element of surprise that’s fundamental of a stealth class.

The addon is presenting you with whats available in the combat log from the base UI. The program puts a tidy bow on it so its more pleasent to read.

[Treelover-benediction]

That requires personal interaction and time, both of which are precious commodities in a pvp environment.

Having an addon do this automatically is a huge benefit.

So is keeping track of when my energy is going to tick so I can power shift at the right time. So is keeping track of my mana when in form so I can make sure I dont shift out without being able to shift back in.

Should these kind of aids be removed because they’re helpful and provide a massive advantage over someone without them?

[Burninator-smolderweb]

The addon is presenting you with whats available in the combat log from the base UI. The program puts a tidy bow on it so its more pleasent to read.

Exactly. Whether players have stealthed comes from the combat log, yet Blackhaven argues that’s the addon’s fault. He further argues that nobody should be able to easily read the combat log. But if Blizzard didn’t want us to know when a rogue or druid went stealth, it wouldn’t be logged, and if they didn’t want us to be able to easily read it, log entries wouldn’t be formatted nicely and there’d be no “What happened to me?” button. Honestly, his complaint is with the game, not the addon, but he hates all addons and just wants one more victory after ClassicLFG.

[Sevaryn-nerzhul (Sevaryn)]

yeah but let’s be honest, who does that?

Are you kidding? We gave zone-wide heads-up when idiots were ganking in Redridge all the time. It was a warning for questing lowbies and a target laser for the mains coming in to stop it.

[Xarli-arthas (Xarli)]

Are we just going to crusade against every addon we don’t like one by one now? The no changes movement dies a little more each day, it seems.

[Burninator-smolderweb]

Are you kidding? We gave zone-wide heads-up when idiots were ganking in Redridge all the time. It was a warning for questing lowbies and a target laser for the mains coming in to stop it.

Yeah, this happens in Hillsbrad all the time. Horde and Alliance will even form raids, too, to beat each side down until one of the raids gets bored and everyone else can go on questing. That’s World PvP. Ganking is just griefing.

[Henasi-faerlina]

Don’t get me wrong, not asking for it to be taken down.

All i’m pointing out is this add-on provides more information and awareness for a player. Let be honest, the majority of players will not look at the combat logs while knew deep in quests or other daily tasks

[Blackhaven-emerald-dream]

The point is that the addon hasnt introduced anything you wouldn’t have done in PvP somewhere else.
This is the sequence of the convo:

• You complain that classes/players respond to your presence & that you “have” to play around the fact players might know you’re around.
• I put out ways on how to deal with people who are smart enough to pay attention (aka patience) - using similar ways you would in a more confined area such as a duel, aka 1v1 fighting.

You didn’t address my actual point of how having the addon in the first place automatically alerts you to the presence of anyone near you without you having to actual look around yourself, listen for near inaudible cues, or read a combat log all while going about your open world day. You are just listing ways for stealth classes to again, having to modify and play around an addon that has automated actions a player would have to do themselves without it.

Those teir lists don’t change with this addon btw. The difference with wPvP and duel is that they consider that you have the space you need to move. Duels restrict you to a radius. Druids arn’t as good in duels as wPvP because we can’t run away, not because the enemy knows we’re coming in duels.

Druids and Rogues are both aren’t as good in duels as WPvP because once you are aware of their presence, most every class can prepare themselves in the multiple ways I listed. Most classes, especially rogues/druids have different pvp talents even when comparing dueling to WPvP specs. It goes well beyond fight radius.

I’m curious as to what you mean by more dynamic? Because what you’re saying is you want everyone (or close to) to be 100% unaware you’re around. That’s not wanting wPvP to be more dynamic because there’s no feedback from the other player on the stepup.

The addon makes things more dynamic. You have the extra facet of trying to figure out what they know by their behavior. The big question - do they know you’re coming for them? How do you change your tactic based on what you think they think. If you didnt have the ability to know who was around you - you wouldn’t get that, it would be less dyanmic, more sterile.

The dynamic/feedback comes from when the initial engagement occurs. You are literally removing the element of surprise from WPvP. This isn’t even about just stealth classes at this point, this goes beyond that just by /3 sharing info and now knowing what specific persons, levels, classes are around. You are removing ANY element of surprise and sterilizing it. The only dynamic you are adding is having to work around an addon, and that’s awful.

[Blackhaven-emerald-dream]

Regardless of level, this uses a third party, instead of using the mechanics provided. to remove the element of surprise that’s fundamental of a stealth class.

The addon is presenting you with whats available in the combat log from the base UI. The program puts a tidy bow on it so its more pleasent to read.

It’s not a tidy bow, it’s beyond that. It shares data with other spy users. It creates audio alerts for specific actions. You don’t even have to read, just listen and click. I can guarantee you the people in here fighting so hard to keep it, would never read the combat log.

Also, by this logic, LFG should be in the game, blizzard should just implement it themselves right? Let’s turn this into retail.

[Burninator-smolderweb]

All i’m pointing out is this add-on provides more information and awareness for a player. Let be honest, the majority of players will not look at the combat logs while knew deep in quests or other daily tasks

Deadly Boss Mods, Details!, WeakAuras 2, Recount, Auctioneer, GTFO, HealBot, GatherMate2, Leatrix Maps, MobInfo2, Questie, DejaClassicStats, Titan Panel, Bagnon. What do you think these addons do? They “provide more information and awareness for a player.” If, on that basis, someone wants to get rid of Spy, all addons need to go, too, and that’s just not going to happen.

[Treelover-benediction]

You didn’t address my actual point of how having the addon in the first place automatically alerts you to the presence of anyone near you without you having to actual look around yourself, listen for near inaudible audio cues, or read a combat log all while going about your open world day. You are just listing ways for stealth classes to again, having to modify and play around an addon that has automated actions a player would have to do themselves with it.

Because just being alerted of someones presence isn’t inherently an issue and it seems facitious. Theres really no difference between reading a name on the list vs reading one thats scrolling in a combat log.

Druids and Rogues are both aren’t as good in duels as WPvP because once you are aware of their presence, most every class can prepare themselves in the multiple ways I listed

Uhhhh what are you talking about? Rogues excel because of how many CD’s and how much CC they have, that’s irrespective of whether its in wPvP or duels. Druids excel more in wPvP because they can kite, reset, reopen (which is much harder in a duel where people can corner you).

Feel free to send through a source if you want to try and support your claims tho. Here are mine:
https://dotesports.com/streaming/news/world-of-warcraft-classic-class-tier-list-pvp
https://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/wow-classic-best-class-tier-list
https://rankedboost.com/world-of-warcraft/classic-best-class-tier-list/

The dynamic/feedback comes from when the initial engagement occurs. You are literally removing the element of surprise from WPvP. This isn’t even about just stealth classes at this point, this goes beyond that just by /3 sharing info and now knowing what specific persons, levels, classes are around. You are removing ANY element of surprise and sterilizing it. The only dynamic you are adding is having to work around an addon, and that’s awful.

If the person is only ever surprised by the gank, then the feedback before you open is the same every time. I don’t get why you’re trying to twist it. There will always be feedback after the initial attack, but you’re advocating that stripping that initial feedback of figuring out what they know. That’s removing a dynamic component.

Zone chats have been a thing for the existance of the game. Idk about you but I get reports of the enemy faction being around all the time. I get reports from just people im near informing me people are around. That happens irrespective of the addon, so it doesnt address the issue - this is fundamental complaint about the base game…

[Phleg-grobbulus]

before spy no one ever used local defense or general to say that alliance were camping nesingwary again… /sarcasm

[Blackhaven-emerald-dream]

Because just being alerted of someones presence isn’t inherently an issue and it seems facitious. Theres really no difference between reading a name on the list vs reading one thats scrolling in a combat log.

There is a huge difference between a wall of data and the automated organization and dissemination of said data. That’s literally how the world works, data on it’s own does not mean much without interpretation, this addon does that for you. Again, you are ignoring how it shares logs between multiple players and audio alerts. Being alerted of the presence of someone that is invisible isn’t inherently an issue? lol.

Uhhhh what are you talking about? Rogues excel because of how many CD’s and how much CC they have, that’s irrespective of whether its in wPvP or duels. Druids excel more in wPvP because they can kite, reset, reopen (which is much harder in a duel where people can corner you).

I never said Rogues did not excel in both, I said there are different tiers, Rogues are great at both but they are the top class in WPvP due to the element of surprise, they are not the top class in duels because of that removal of surprise and because other classes can prepare. Mages, Warlocks, and Paladins crush Rogues in dueling, warriors and hunters as well to an extent but it’s a little more balanced there.

If the person is only ever surprised by the gank, then the feedback before you open is the same every time. I don’t get why you’re trying to twist it. There will always be feedback after the initial attack, but you’re advocating that stripping that initial feedback of figuring out what they know. That’s removing a dynamic component.

It’s far less of a component than removing the element of surprise. It’s also an artificially added component due to an addon, not the game design.

Zone chats have been a thing for the existance of the game. Idk about you but I get reports of the enemy faction being around all the time. I get reports from just people im near informing me people are around. That happens irrespective of the addon, so it doesnt address the issue - this is fundamental complaint about the base game…

Not every single person reports in zone chats, people do it when it gets bad and in general terms and they dont provide all the information this provides. This scans and sends the player name, class, race, lvl, location, and marks it. Removing ALL user input. Saying “Alliance at Nessing” is much different than a constant automated feed without any user input. Just like LFG, you are removing user input/actions.

[Treelover-benediction]

It’s not a tidy bow, it’s beyond that. It shares data with other spy users. It creates audio alerts for specific actions. You don’t even have to read, just listen and click. I can guarantee you the people in here fighting so hard to keep it, would never read the combat log.

Also, by this logic, LFG should be in the game, blizzard should just implement it themselves right? Let’s turn this into retail.

Chat parsers are a thing, doesn’t matter whether you like them or not they exist and are accepted by Blizzard. DBM shares chat/whispers during combat encounters. Arena addons spit out text with who your oponents are. Rare announcers in mechagon spit out world chat with information and coordinates - What is your point?

WeakAuras2 shares data too - What is your point?

WeakAuras2 creates noise notification based on custom triggers you can set up for any list of actions in the game - What is your point?

Can you guaentee that? Because I sure as hell would be, and I know others that used to do that back in Vanilla… so you should probably stop projecting what you would do as what everyone else would do.

Also, by this logic, LFG should be in the game, blizzard should just implement it themselves right? Let’s turn this into retail.

An LFG addon is in the game, but it doesnt have full functionality. Nope because its build using the tools Blizzards set up for the community. Hyperbole makes for poor argument supporters.

[Blackhaven-emerald-dream]

I’m glad you gave up on valid debate and ended up with the usual monkey see monkey do point that X existed so Y is fine.

btw LFG was functional until Blizzard broke it 2 days ago, how do you not know this considering the knowledge you pretend to spout? Regardless, I have to head to practice. Have a nice day hiding from Rogues in the world my scared little kittens.

[Treelover-benediction]

There is a huge difference between a wall of data and the automated organization and dissemination of said data.

Unfortunately for you this is the explicit stated purpose of addons by Blizzard.

" However, when an add-on goes beyond presenting information or providing aesthetic customization, and attempts to create an interconnected social network that relies on other players also using that same add-on, we are likely to scrutinize it particularly closely ."

Spy doesnt.

I never said Rogues did not excel in both, I said there are different tiers, Rogues are great at both but they are the top class in WPvP due to the element of surprise, they are not the top class in duels because of that removal of surprise and because other classes can prepare. Mages, Warlocks, and Paladins crush Rogues in dueling, warriors and hunters as well to an extent but it’s a little more balanced there.

What you implied was that rogues don’t excel in duels because of the loss of surprise. Surprising someone is your opener really doesnt matter how much prep they do before hand. If you think it makes that much of a difference that because you’re not as good as the players your coming up against that you lose to. Its that simple.

It’s far less of a component than removing the element of surprise. It’s also an artificially added component due to an addon, not the game design.

Its really not. Everything is viewable in the combat log. You can keep pretending that it doesnt exist but I’m not gunna sit here and accept you presenting argument that hinge on it not existing.

Not every single person reports in zone chats, people do it when it gets bad and in general terms and they dont provide all the information this provides. This scans and sends the player name, class, race, lvl, location, and marks it. Removing ALL user input. Saying “Alliance at Nessing” is much different than a constant automated feed without any user input. Just like LFG, you are removing user input/actions.

1. Not everyone uses that specific addon with the announcing. VanosKoS doesnt, thats the one I personally use. So not everyone will.
2. It marks your location. Not theirs. This is achievable by saying what part of the zone you’re at.
3. There is no difference from saying “Horde here” and others asking “lvl?” “Class?”. If no ones doing that then no ones going to respond. People will be on edge as soon as you say anything about people being agro in an area.
4. Text chat isn’t considered automation by Blizzard. Other addons do it and have done it for years.

[Plaguelust-malganis]

I’m glad you gave up on valid debate and ended up with the usual monkey see monkey do point that X existed so Y is fine.

The presence of other acceptable API functions with longstanding histories and approval by Blizzard that use or go well beyond what Spy does is in fact a valid debate strategy. At the end of the day, what Blizzard says is acceptable or not is the final word, not what anyone else here says. Therefore, appealing to the actual authority on the matter is not only valid, but sound.

You haven’t had a good argument in quite some time, mostly relying upon some nebulous concept of how wPvP is supposed to occur with regards to stealth based classes. At best you have a purely aesthetic argument based upon your own subjective preferences, nothing more, and it all comes off as the typical anti-addon purist tripe that crops up on the boards every other day. The irony here is that you’re arguing against formatted and streamlined Combat Log information when the default UI already has that functionality built right in with scrolling combat text and color coding to boot (hence the 15yr old term for white and yellow attacks).

btw LFG was functional until Blizzard broke it 2 days ago

You keep saying this but it isn’t true. I can still see people looking for groups in the Trade/General/World channels using the addon. Today.

/shrug

[Treelover-benediction]

I’m glad you gave up on valid debate and ended up with the usual monkey see monkey do point that X existed so Y is fine.

Precedent: an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

Nice attempt at shrugging off information you don’t like though.

btw LFG was functional until Blizzard broke it 2 days ago, how do you not know this considering the knowledge you pretend to spout? Regardless, I have to head to practice. Have a nice day hiding from Rogues in the world my scared little kittens.

Did you forget about this?

LFG tool Blizzard broke just 2 days ago was through restricting the /who function by addons.

Mine works just fine as of today. LOL?

[Burninator-smolderweb]

Spy doesnt.

More than that, data sharing between Spy users is completely optional, defaults to disabled, and apparently completely invisible to users. I have it enabled, but I’ve yet to see what it actually does.

Looking at the code just now, Spy shares notifications with other Spy users in your party, in your raid, and in your guild. It does not share data globally. Spy’s data sharing feature uses AceComm’s SendCommMessage function, which wraps Blizzard’s SendAddonMessage function, to accomplish this. SendAddonMessage was introduced by Blizzard in 1.12 precisely for this purpose.