[Spoilers] Alexstrasza and the Dream

Lore Story Forum
545

Except it didn’t.

Draenor didn’t ‘shape them to invade and kill’ at all. As the lore states, quite clearly, the Orc Clans of the main universe were rarely in conflict as they kept to themselves, only really meeting for trade and for festivals such as the Kosh’harg.

Even when they did go to war as a species prior to the Legion showing up and corrupting them, they preferred less confrontational forms of warfare, like sieges, over invasion and mindless slaughter. That is what they planned to do with the Ogres, at least until the Ogres unleashed the Red Pox on the Orcs. Only then did they ask the elements to destroy the Ogres and their city.

It was the Burning Legion that turned them into invaders and merciless killers.

546

With the Legion defeated there even less access to Pit Lord blood than ever, and the Horde’s Orcs wouldn’t want to drink any now regardless.

547

The Legion isn’t really ‘defeated’ though. I’d say stalled more than anything else.

With Sargeras imprisoned and watched over by Illidan and the other Titans of the Pantheon the Burning Legion is temporarily leaderless, but there are many high-ranking demons who, thanks to Antorus, are still very much alive or in the process of returning to life.

In fact, thanks to Antorus, every major demon leader that we killed prior to shutting it down is still very much alive. Even the ones that were killed in the Twisting Nether.

Why do I say this? Well, because of how the lore surrounding demons works, we know there’s only two ways to permanently kill a demon. To either kill them within the Twisting Nether itself, or to kill them on a planet saturated by the energies of the Twisting Nether. However, while we’re on Argus, Turalyon lets slip that one of the Lieutenants of the Burning Legion that we slay will simply be ‘reborn in Antorus’. This creates an issue, because Argus is a planet saturated by the energies of the Twisting Nether, considering just how corrupted it is.

So if Antorus can snatch a demon soul that -should- have died for good and preserve it, and distance is not an obstacle (Varimathras’s soul was snatched up despite the fact that Azeroth was thousands of light years away from Argus at the time of his death) that means every demon we slew is still kicking around somewhere. We may not see them for a long time, but they’re still alive.

And as long as they’re alive, eventually the Legion will return because they’ll want to finish what they started.

That means demons like Archimonde, Mannoroth, Doom Lord Kazzak, Tichondrius (although as we now know, he and the other Dreadlords are loyal to Sire Denathrius), Azgalor, Lord Jarraxus, Brutallus, Magtheridon, etc, are all very much either alive or waiting to respawn.

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548

Didn’t the nelves trade a nobility caste for a religious one? I thought everything was controlled by the priest(ess)hood and segregated by gender for a long time.

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549

The Orcs were not immediately attacked. Tyrande got reports of the Orcs coming into the forest and hoped they would just pass through Ashenvale to get to other lands and intended to leave then alone. Then the Orcs started cutting down trees, and rather than employ any form of diplomacy, Tyrande had the Night Elves attack the Orcs. And then she attacked the Humans that were allied with the Orcs. Malfurion would have rather initiated partnership with the Horde and Jaina’s forces to fight against the Legion together, even after the death of Cenarius, and Malfurion ultimately had the correct idea, but he respected Tyrande as the leader of the Night Elves at the time so that he could spend time in the Emerald Dream out of the Night Elves’ agreement with Ysera for blessing Nordrassil.

Posters often note this all as the Night Elves starting the conflict, though from an in setting perspective if someone starts stealing one’s property the generally accepted response is to drive the thieves away by force if needed.

That covered, I think Tyrande’s decision to attack without trying any sort of diplomacy first was bad, but I was not a fan of Tyrande in Warcraft III.

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550

He had?

Given how dominant Warhammer was in the 90s, how most “nerds” (including many at the writing team) flocked to it, and the fact that Warcraft was an open attempt at shamelessly copying said setting, always thought that the races that were a mere copycat were the easiest sell.

And when WC3 launched, Wood elves had already been around for some time.

With characters like Orion and Ariel as their dual leaders, who served as a not so subtle inspiration for the creation of the likes of Malfurion and Tyrande…

551

I was more dunking on only their clan can make it.

Saying warrior culture with a very wide definition of warrior isn’t terribly useful, in that most modern societies are warrior cultures by some of the definitions applied here.

I do agree that night elves are a warrior culture in some ways, especially since random civilians were able to very nearly defeat the entire Horde up until a dues ex smugglers’ route that no one had scouted or heard about despite their insane closeness with the land was birthed from plot fiat.

I just think that it’s odd that the white boy metal fantasy race goes after the two most PoC coded Alliance races, including a matriarchally presenting one and a very egalitarian one, no awkward retcons of what that gal said in the barrens in Vanilla needed.

To be fair, I’m mostly just being contrarian, but not acknowledging that orcs have a complicated history and a complicated set of real world inspirations doesn’t do the dialogue any favors.

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552

Man, by those standards, the dadblamed WILDHAMMER are Native American coded.

What with the war paint and the feathers, maybe even more so.

553

Half the time it feels like the people referencing minorities that somehow WoW races “represent” are just low effort arguments that is supposed to win them internet points.

I honestly feel sorry for them that despite so much knowledge in every corner they see racism and can’t seperate reality and fantasy.

No I dont see Trolls as jamaicans, Night Elves as japanese or Draenei as jews.
I dont see if something happens to them or is done by them indicative of how Blizzard writers feel about said groups.
Its just a miserable way of looking at the story and not to mention limiting.
Yeah can’t have the Trolls be bad in an expansion thats hateful towards the south american POCs they represent. Its an insane line of arguments and discussion.

The only people that look at the story like that are these hyper sensative people and the actual racists that think their fantasy race represents X group.

I just want the Night Elves to live their life and the Orcs to F off finally. And uf the Orcs and Night Elves are supposes to get along the Orcs have to humble themselves and apologize for the two decades of blood to a people that largely kept to themselves.

And dont get me started on the whole victim blaming and its wrong to want revenge shtick so tired of that nonesense ugh

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554

You can, and should, definitely acknowledge inspirations and similarities.

However, it’s not a free escape from moral culpability to say “well, X race has H coding, so anyone who fights them is THE RACISTS”.

Especially if X race is a bunch of might makes right colonizers who use their weak or less clever members as slave labor but don’t mind me…

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555

It’s sort of puzzling how easily discussions turn into racial debates around these forums, but to answer a particular bit:

Neither do I honestly.

That these races borrow a lot of themes from RL is a fact though.
And I understand if people take issue if writers lean on those RL themes when elaborating “how and why” a race behaved in a “bad” way.

But…I also think this happens far less often than some people say it does.

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556

I definitely recognize the inspirations, but I am not assuming its representative of actual people.

Like I remember Baal arguing that siege of Dazaralor was racist and promoted colonialism. Like bro… chill…

Maybe I am ignorant or dont have their 300 level IQ but at no point did i even make the math that siege of dazaralor was motivating me to be a colonial

I just wanted to kick some Horde butt but Blizzard forced me to kick some zandalari’s instead.

100% you are right and too often I see similar arguments floating around

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557

Honest question, do we really know about that? Its been some years since i played war 3, so i have to rely in youtube and wowpedia.

Here, the first campaign: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX9czQMJtB4&ab_channel=Kebooooo it ends with Grom and the orcs defeating the nelves, even wowpedia says so:

The Warsongs under Grom managed to successfully defend themselves and kill their attackers

And then, next mission, Cenarius appears and helps the nelves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAaAj4lr4hg&ab_channel=Kebooooo

‘‘but by doing so they caught the attention of the demigod. Determined to avenge the deaths of the night elves who had fallen against the Warsong clan and protect the forest from what he saw as further desecration, Cenarius attempted to slaughter the orcs.’’

Did chronicles 3 changed any of that? I remember war 3 cause i really loved that game, but i read CH3 just one time, so i dont know if it says anything of the nelves winning without cenarius.

edit: i misunderstood your post and corrected myself below, english is not my first language btw

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558

My only comment for th blue eyes is that metzen had them.

But wolves??
Dude the mongols worshiped them. And orcs borrow so much from the mongols, boi howdy.

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559

It’s mostly from the mission itself, where Cenarius just kinda sits back and lets the Night Elf units do the attacking, as seen in the video you linked:

    Warsong Orc: Their numbers are too great! We must fall back to the other side of the river!
    Cenarius: Now, my warriors, cleanse these brutes from the wilds! I will watch over you from the forest.

560

Yes, thats the line from the second video, when Cenarius evoke an army of trees…I dont remember the specific name of them, it seems to me that the warsong were outmatched in numbers, and if they couldnt win in numbers, they had to win in strength

Im just asking about the whole ‘Even if Cenarius had not joined the fray, those five armies would have beaten the Warsong Clan’ since the warsong successfully defends itself against all the nelves armies (at least in the first video) and the battle starts to turn just in the moment that Cenarius interfere

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561

The first mission you linked was not against the five armies, just a scouting party. I’m not sure where the logic of having won the first mission comes into play when discussing the second mission, where the Orcs come to report on their situation to Grom after he drinks the demon blood:

    Warsong Orc: Chieftain, these creatures press us hard! And their demigod still lurks in the forest! How can we possibly defeat him?

562

Yeah, I’m not necessarily saying that orcs are entirely 90s metalhead California white boy idea of COOL, but I’m saying it’s a very strong influence. Conan had his fair share of pop culture Mongol inspirations, and he’s ABSOLUTELY in the DNA of WoW’s orcs.

Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing. After all, I quite like orcs, despite that not realllllly being my aesthetic. They’re fun.

I just kind of mean that it’s sort of odd to read something into lore, then get mad at others over your interpretation. Especially when it comes to casting aspersions on their character. And certainly when there’s plenty of room for less flattering interpretations.

563

Carhagen said the orcs were fighting against the Moonhunters, Shadowleaves, Nightblades and the Starseekers, thats exactly the 4 armies that fight in the first video:

https://i.imgur.com/OxMDt9J.png

And later got reinforced with cenarius minions and when the orcs really started to lose

564

Oh, lol, nevermind now i understand what he’s talking about, he’s saying that even without cenarius itself, his minions + nelves would have defeated the warsong, yeah i agree, the game really makes that clear, that army of trees was terrible to fight against

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