My point here is that lecturing on racism is a little bit dodgy when you stand on a throne that consists of “blue eyes are special”, “wolves are our spirit animal”, “the uncorruptable clan lives in the harsh frozen north which kills the weak” fur bikini wearing Ron Hubbard styled West coast fantasy version of vikings shenanigans.
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Uff, so many bs here, its hard to shallow, but to the point of the subject in this topic:
The reason the alliance/nightelf want an win against the horde/orc onscreen is that the reason for their dilema is ingame.
The issue of the horde/orcs is that the horde lost its wc3 excusse entirely, there is no reason to prejudge them because every one can judge them on their deeds and can clearly see that they are the monster every one suggestet they would be.
So to speak their “innosence” is gone and every judgement and condem to their race is valid.
And in regard of Fascim aestethic, i would disagree, but i agree on his point that the elves are often displayed or descripted as more naturally gifted as the “normal races” and so superior to the rest.
In warcraft aswell, the lore and description is there, i guess his fascism aestethic point was about this topic.
But in warcraft its only used to show how even more superior the orcs are by showing them winnning on screen again and again.
It helps nothing to say “but the humans are even more bla bla”, because the topic is nightelf vs horde and not horde vs humans.
The night elves are getting a new tree. All well and good. I hope it happens within the scope of the coming expansion. When it’s done, let’s tie it off, wave goodbye, and then maybe…just maybe, Blizz can focus on something other than the U.S.S. Nelfdrama and Tyrande’s newest cinematic.
Just a thought.
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It took a single Clan to defeat Cenarius. I don’t think the night elves can adapt with times since all they got to fight with is glaives, spears and bows. They don’t have any modern technology and ancients can be lit on fire. Their peak has passed. Let them pass away on the drgaon isles while the cool races take over the continents for good.
The sad thing is, they only solve one issue of an entire list of issues in this regard.
By denying the nightelf their portion of flesh, the devs created a problem they can’t fix easily, the devs broke almost one of their biggest fanbases in regards to races and bfa was only the final push, its started much earlier
From wikipedia after 10 seconds of research on the subject
" A warrior is a person specializing in combat or warfare, especially within the context of a tribal or clan-based warrior culture society that recognizes a separate warrior aristocracy, class, or caste."
I’ll give you two examples then that contradict your argument of the kaldorei and Stormwind not being warrior civilizations.
Kaldorei society is largely divided into three castes. Moon priests, sentinels and druids. In that same society the spiritual leader is the military leader. As happened in countless examples of warrior societies throughout history. In which the clergy was directly linked to the warrior caste.
Also, I’ll come back to the example of Sparta invoked in a limited way in that thread. Spartan civilization also had other aspects to its society that went beyond war. They had religious cults, they had commerce, and other aspects of their culture. The point is that there was a caste in this society of great prestige that was solely concerned with war. This is exactly one of the foundations of kaldorei society.
In Stormwind society this has always been the case, the culture of this civilization even justified the existence of its aristocracy by the fact that it was made up of heirs of a warrior dynasty descended from the greatest warrior culture of humans, the lineage of Arathor.
The entire foundation of human society in Warcraft is directly associated with a warrior culture, the empire of Arathor was before its founding a tribe that warred with its neighbors and subsequently subjugated them all.
In numerous excerpts from the lore, Stormwind is said to be the kingdom closest to Stromgarde. And that inherited many of the cultural aspects of that society, the society of Stormwind had as its most prominent caste the warriors that made up the brotherhood of the horse, the nobles and the conjurers, also involved with aspects of war.
Furthermore, all of Stormwind’s kings were warrior kings, and in societies where the culture is built around the values of a state figure, the culture tends to gravitate toward the characteristics that define that figure. Again, you cannot make logical inferences of what a warrior society is.
And because there are fishermen in Stormwind, you’d think they couldn’t be a warrior culture.
I was talking about Warcraft 3, you weren’t even in the conversation, I had never spoken to you and you came to talk about Cata and BFA, taking the discussion away from the point that was originally being discussed.
Okay my dude, let me approach this in such a way that your potato-sized brain can grasp what I was saying about fascist aesthetics.
The fascist aesthetic is not and has never been about the existence per se of a fascist regime. They are different phenomena in history. Fascist aesthetics descend from works that address the theme of totalitarian aesthetics.
The rise of fascism has to do with a reaction by German society over its discontent with industrialization and the loss of its roots as a rural society. Previously, the motivation for this discontent was due to the work of Rosseau, who pointed to the degeneration process that cities offered men, as opposed to the fact that man was essentially good and that society corrupted him.
In this passage of Rosseau’s work, there is an explicit defense that a return to nature would be the only way to redeem man from his condition of degeneration caused by life in large urban centers.
Later, some German intellectuals began to use Rosseau’s work to defend the particularities of their society, against the corrupted society of England, which was bourgeois and had a way of life constrained by the homogenizing ethics of the bourgeoisie.
The most prominent of these authors was Johann Gottfried von Herder, an ardent supporter of ideas that would later be identified as the seed of nationalism.
Rosseau’s social experiment, which defended the purity of man in the face of society, led to the period of terror in the French Revolution. As is known, Rousseau’s ideas were deeply idealistic, and disregarded a fundamental aspect of nature, that nature itself is not good, it is actually a cruel, implacable and an indifferent god.
Authors such as Marques de Sade, and later Camile de Paglia addressed this monumental flaw in Rosseau’s work, since he did not understand that man living in a stage of nature is nothing more than the repetition of that same ethics, or rather the abandonment of any ethics in favor of a mere reproduction of the ethics of nature which is cruel, implacable and indifferent.
Now I will explain why the kaldorei aesthetic feeds on aspects that are prominent in fascist aesthetics.
The fascist movement that we came to know in the 1930s is the last stage of the ideas propagated by the romanticist movement, which found its most fertile territory in Germany. At the end of the 19th century, German society was in a state of complete rebellion against bourgeois values.
The German middle class, mainly the Protestant one, was an ardent defender of romantic values. The most prominent of these advocates was the composer Wagner. That in one of his most famous operas, he addressed the decay of society, as a process of degeneration generated by capitalism, since he forges in one of the passages a ring forged by a Jew that contained all the luxury of the world and gives it to the king from England.
Wagner’s ideas found great reverberation in the Volkish movement in Germany, a group of young middle-class Germans, who at the end of the 19th century defended the return of a model of life aligned with nature and its return to the detriment of technological progress and the capitalism.
They also believed in the idea of a feudal society in which there would be a strong sense of hierarchy. The Volkish movement later grew into the Wandervogel movement, which translated meant the wandering birds.
This group believed that the only way to save the German spirit was through a return to the paganism of nature and its worship. This movement did not agree on what this return to nature was, and because of this, it ended up fragmenting into several groups with different political perceptions of what this return means, ranging from the extreme left to the extreme right spectral politic.
Those who stood out the most in this regard were those linked to ideas that promoted hygiene of the race, abstinence from vices, the cult of body perfection, and other forms of decay of the body and spirit, among other aspects that would later make up fascism.
All of these groups, regardless of their political vocation, were direct remnants of the Romantic movement that took over Germany after the 18th century.
These aspects of mysticism of nature were later adopted by fascist ideology, mixed with discourse of ethnic purity.
In the works of fascists intellectuals, the understanding of political ideology was the mere application of biological sciences to the field of political science, and that therefore the return to nature was something simply like the realization of the nature of the chosen people.
The practices of the German fascist regime embraced in every sense an ethics that today we would call ecologist. They created the largest nature reserves in Europe, they banned the slaughter of animals with inhumane practices, they established the study of ecology as a compulsory subject in their schools. They created laws that aimed to combat air pollution. They promoted vegetarianism and did many of these things before any nation in the world.
In addition, they conducted the largest reforestation projects of the first half of the 20th century in Europe.
The thing about the fascists is that they finally unleashed a discourse in which this return to nature was directly linked to the application of Darwinism, and that Darwinism was the only acceptable ethic. Since in nature the survival of the weakest was not acceptable, so in society the weak should not survive. This was particularly present in the fascist youth, who according to Hitler would be the incarnation of nature, being cruel, ruthless and that would make the world tremble.
Now about kaldorei aesthetics being inspired by fascism I would say that this is obvious for the following reasons.
Kaldorei society, throughout its history has always been deeply xenophobic, it is not even unknown to all that they have always been the race most concerned with issues associated with ethnic purity. And that they even designated their social castes through degrees of purity. In addition, the characteristic of having golden eyes stood out among the kaldorei as a symbol of ascension over the others, something that had only been present in Illidan and Azshara. Showing that physical aspects also determined the social position in that society.
What is understood as science in Warcraft has always been linked to the idea of cultivating the arcane. The kaldorei were the first race to banish the arcane, and forbid its use. Due to the events leading up to the Legion’s first invasion, writers justified its use as dangerous. In fascist logic the use of technology is something inherently evil, and must be fought. The authors using this analogy with the kaldorei does not surprise me.
Now let’s return to the aspects that came to define the kaldorei after their return to nature. The kaldorei society, throughout its period of great vigil, began to live in a process of complete fusion with nature, from the perspective of the kaldorei nature was and always has been a good in itself. Exactly as we see in the aesthetics that guided the romantic and rosseuanian values.
In addition, the kaldorei were openly advocates that nature as an existence should exist without any interference from anyone, since it is something sacred. The kaldorei reached the point, as we see in Warcraft 3, of thinking that this sacred nature was more important than sentient beings who were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time.
They had always been portrayed as a race of perfect physical aspects, since their inception by Metzen, in addition, they valued monuments easily found in authoritarian societies. As the use of only one color is always present in kaldorei art, the conception of statues of elves wearing light clothes is always present, being presented in communion with nature, in addition to other artistic aspects of the race that portray nature as something inherently good .
My argument about this being part of the fascist aesthetic has to do with the fact that the cult of nature as something good in itself is intrinsically linked to the romanticism that later unfolded in the aspects that came to shape fascism.
The actions of the kaldorei, before the orcs in Warcraft 3, make it clear that they did not feel any empathy for sentient races, since for them nature was something that overcame any intelligent being. The same can be said for the fact that they never worried about what happened to the tauren who helped them in the war of Ancients, as it was the orcs who came to their rescue.
The kaldorei have always been an isolationist race, who preserved the same model of society for 10,000 years, who did not believe in technological progress, in fact they were completely refractory to the idea of technological progress. They were purists in the strictest sense of a very particular way of life, and did not allow any form of dissent from these values, even going so far as to expel those who would become the blood elves because they did not share their values.
Furthermore, there is no excerpt from the lore that I can recall where there were interracial marriages involving kaldorei. Something that points to the fact that they are strongly attached to ideas of racial purity.
So for me, this discussion involving fascist regimes doesn’t matter much. My point is that the kaldorei are the mere expression of something that is deeply linked to the idea of nature as the central object of existence, as seen in the romanticist ideology that later became what it became.
And this is the embodiment of the fascist aesthetic.
Am I fascist now? You can’t have an argument without being a big piece of … that accusing people of all sorts of things?
It’s because he was making an analogy, and as we’ve already seen here, you are totally incapable of understanding analogies, in fact I have serious doubts that you are capable of producing abstract thoughts.
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Fascism has its roots in italy, and was part of the concepts created in the enlightment(they created many theoretical concepts back then, all fine until someone trys to bring this theoreticum into reality) to build the modern state, it was based on the promise on the powerfull states in the european concerts of power, italy wanted to unite and return to their former power to take a seet on the table on the four most influental spheres in europe by following the concept of fashism.
The return to the roots of nature in german was a direct result of the bad effects industrilisation had on the normal people and even back then the people knew that tree’s soften the blow of air poisining. This in combination with the vaterland “stolz” was a bridge to connect with the past and the assoziation of an easier time.
My god bro, really? Dont you understand that national socialism in Germany is the same thing as fascism? That im using that as sinonym because you cant use the word na…zi here?
Also, i quoted many scholars in the subject, that says that fascism is originated in the works of Rosseau and later it was propagated via the movement later known as romanticism, I gonna have to go all over again quoting people who actually undestands more of the subject than you or me?
I know but you’re talking about fashism and how it came to be, i explain it to you how it really started in the mid of the 19. Century and you were simply wrong with your takes on this topic
What do you mean by “portion of flesh”? Are you talking about the nelves starting a potential revenge campaign against the Horde? If not then what more would nelfs theink they’re entitled to other than getting a brand new tree city all to themselves?
Please elaborate.
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I mean they should have gave the nelf in bfa an big onscreen win against the horde in darkshore and ashenvale (you know, the missiontables mission were there, instead of missiontable it should be a questcampaign) instead of wait and see.
No warfront but a slaughterfest of the nightwarrior to the borders of ashenvale , you know, it would had many things easier right now
And my point is that blind love of nature was not something alien to fascism, that in fact they were nature lovers more than any other ideology.
And that I find it very strange that no one questions this blind love of the kaldorei for nature, and how this in our world has always led to very perverse experiences.
Also, it surprises me that people don’t question this kaldorei’s deep love for nature, but find it normal for Velen to be questioned for blindly believing in the light.
I hope Blizzard eventually addresses this, utilizing Eonar, and showing how life is just as much a troublesome agent as others on Azeroth.
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The nightelf have no blind spot for the cruelty of nature but you would react the same if half of your population is in the emerald dream for centurys to regulate and control of the flow of nature, so to speak nightelfs can look behind nature and work with the engine that empowers and build nature in the first place, a small part of the garden of live, the emerald dream
They know what nature is, they understand it on a much more metaphysical level as in reality even possible because we have no emerald dream^^/magic
Of course, they kill people who have entered their forest without ever having heard of their existence without trying to establish any form of dialogue. Then they invoke a demigod to exterminate those same people. But they do not have blind love for nature and do not place it above intelligent races that happen to be in such a state of poverty that they need those resources to survive.
I think that if some immigrants show up here in my country building some huts I also agree that my government should go out shooting cannonballs at them. But strangely when 150,000 Venezuelans showed up in my country in two weeks, that’s not what happened, they were relocated to various parts of my country, and they were incorporated into social assistance programs.
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They killed the orcs because cenarius feeled the fel inside the orcs before their arrival and as the orcs destroyed the hains of ashenvales and even killed a few sleeping ancients the nightelfs were watching them the entire time during this event and were convinced that the legion had returned, cenarius fought them aswell because of it.
They thought orcs were a new created kind of demon
They tried to establish any kind of diplomacy with the orcs? Yes or no? Did they drawn first blood? Yes or no?
Orcs were not invaders at that time, if you want to say that orcs were invaders in Cata and BFA, I completely agree with you. But in the events of Warcraft 3 the orcs were merely immigrants. It’s a fable about immigrants that campaign.
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Darkshore maybe, but disagree on Ashenvale.
Now that they didn’t go that route and considering Blizzard seems to be headed away from doing war between Alliance and Horde in their narative, nelves will either have to be happy with the new stuff they’re getting or solve things at the diplomacy table.
Once they get their new home set and had their final cinematic to tie it off then I really would like it if the devs stopped paying attention to them for at least a couple expansions.
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Kalimdor belongs to the Horde. Night elves need to be kicked out. Period.
I know I’m snipping this out of the rest of the post, but did the Frostwolves ever display this kind of behavior? It’s been ages since I leveled through WoD but my impression was the opposite; that the harsh weather made bonding and taking care of each other really important, kinda like a Conan version of the “you never turn your back on family” meme.
Come to think of it, I imagine their wolves must have adapted to be the snuggliest. Gotta conserve body heat, after all.
Anyway, as for the night elves being a warrior culture, I was under the impression that they were? Their whole backstory was them maintaining a 10,000 year-long vigil for the resurgence of their ancient enemy, to whom they’d be ready and armed to fight back against. They’re just not the “blood and thunder” type of warrior culture, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t one.
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Frostwolves protected the weak, lived communally, had strong brotherly bonds with their wolves, and even welcomed travelers. They have always been a clan that has had strong Native American traits.
Anyone who entered kaldorei territory was immediately killed, as in the case of that human paladin who was also supposed to smell of fel magic.
People have superficial views of complex issues, and only argue based on the surface of what is presented to them.
The whole theme of kaldorei is based on war, or as you said in preparation for war. Their society was all modulated in preparation for an all-out war event. They divided their society into defined castes, which would occupy specific roles in this war, they loved a goddess who was later presented as the avatar of war, they merged with the land they lived in and sought to build alliances with local creatures so that they could be used in the war, they went so far as to militarize nature to prepare for this conflict.
The entire social status system of Azeroth’s societies is profoundly affected by an ethos that encompasses what one might call the heroic system.
To whom do the races of Azeroth build monuments? Who are the figures that the races of Azeroth tend to admire and idolize?
Are there monuments for scholars in Azeroth? Monuments to any profession other than the profession of war? They are all races with a level of martial preparation that does not exist in humanity and never did. All of them have an education that encompasses military notions for their citizens.
But they are not warrior cultures, in the game called Warcraft the races are peaceful. It’s bizarre having to discuss the obvious with Alliance fanboys.
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