My point is you yet to address my response to you on this matter:
Triple post, but Iâve found it now easier to keep different points separate for clarity.
Not just honor to do battle, but also honor to die in battle against a worthy opponent, as the War of the Thorns was basically a very elaborate suicide attempt on Saurfangâs part, something he tried in Legion, and then went for again at the Battle of Lordaeron before Zekhan talked him back down from the edge.
My point has always been that the burning of Teldrassil is simply an event that makes it easy to point out who the winners and losers are in history. But the truth you point out only exists on the surface of the facts. Underneath that is the obvious defeat of an entire project of what was meant to be the faction called the Horde.
All of the elements that defined the Horde established in Warcraft 3 were shattered by this narrative, and Iâve said many times that I didnât think that was particularly fair on orcs. So answering your question, the winners are not the Horde, because the Horde doesnât exist anymore as it was. It was completely destroyed, and now we receive a quest that somehow tries to recover this theme.
The only victors in the lore spanning from Garrosh to the fall of Sylvanas were the humans. The only race that was preserved from all the evil produced in the lore were them, and as I already said indirectly the blood elves. And my dissatisfaction has to do with the fact that hordes races has been codified around POC, and that what has been seen in recent years has been a lame demonstration that these people need a white man savior to make them understand who they are.and which path they should take.
And I said this is an explicitly fascist fable. And people said that fascism doesnât matter to analyze this narrative.
The Horde that serves the purposes that Blizzard has tried to shove down our throats over the last few years is exactly what you said. But before she was not that. And thatâs what many players hate. And thatâs what I was talking about.
About the warsongs, what I said is that the culture of the orcs has always treated war as a cultural manifestation, and that as perverse as this may seem, it is not something that makes them inherently villainous. In orc culture this served as a way of proving worth to oneself and oneâs community.
They battled the kaldorei, not for sport, but for a manifestation of something sacred to them, which was war as an event that served to create vainglory. Many cultures did that trought the history , and at the same time they had a deep sense of honor. For in the mindset of these peoples, the opponents were also there sharing this honor and therefore deserved to be honored.
And this is self-evident when the orcs feel bad for having acted dishonorably, for the orcs they not only dishonored themselves, they also dishonored their opponent. The orcs have always been like this, even when they took the blood of Mannoroth, there is a passage in one of the novels in which a group of orcs warns the humans in a camp that they will attack them, giving them time to prepare for battle because they didnât want to kill them unarmed.
About fascism, if you want a serious discussion about it, I can have it with you. But in a simple way, what I said was that the kaldorei aesthetic is steeped in fascism, because fascism appears as an aspect of romanticism in which there is a strong defense of a return to nature, the opposition of progress and science ( science in warcraft it was always the arcane and the kaldorei hated it), and in which prolonged contact with nature turns into adoration for a god who ultimately turns out to be cruel, indifferent and implacable.
And the kaldorei were exactly that when they came into being. Their love of nature overrode any empathy they felt for a sentient race that was literally the poorest on Azeroth.
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Dying in battle is what orcs value above all else, as is evident in almost everything related to orc lore. Some clans cherished the idea of old age, but most clans feared dying of natural causes above all else. They wanted to find an opponent who would offer them an honorable death.
Saurfangâs whole speech is that this honor was denied to him, he was so good that he didnât think anyone could defeat him. Thatâs why when he is killed in BFA the Horde celebrates, they donât mourn. Because his death in battle was a great honor. At least this is one of the few ways that Blizzard still does the orc lore justice.
I always would have rather the Horde and Night Elves establish communal ties again like they did in Warcraft III, and what Thrall and Malfurion showed again when they met again for the first time since Warcraft III at Ragnarosâ invasion of Mount Hyjal.
Though this now seems extremely difficult to conceive of happening again, given Tyrandeâs tone towards Thrall in Shadows Rising, Thrall also made Tyrande smile then, perhaps unearthing some buried feelings of friendship she once had for Thrall. This was also reciprocated by Thrall during the Maw introductory questing:
Jaina Proudmoore says: Youâre troubled, Thrall. What is it?
Thrall says: Still no sign of Tyrande. We cannot leave her alone in this nightmare.
The Horde is fine, they barely even mention or feel sorry for what they did in BFA. You are over blowing this, the current Horde is prancing about Dragon Isles with the Alliance. And of course how can I forget about the cringe wedding they invited their victims to.
The humans barely have an identity they are just there to be the good guy. The have couple of very character oriented arcs which also get butchered. I feel so bad for Jaina as a character that got dragged through so much crap just to end up where she started because Horde good now for some reason.
My dude you were just arguing for the Warsong are moral for killing Night Elves because its honorable to them. I donât think you have any right to throw jargon like that around.
I donât care what their culture is, just because its their culture doesnât mean they are justified to attack a people, take their land and kill them for sport because their culture demands it. Thats a terrible culture. Its evil.
This is just demented⌠this is so wrong, if this is the Orcs as you imagine them then they are nothing but blood hungry monsters who adhere to a bloody code that deserve to be wiped out. Jesus christâŚ
I mean it makes for interesting stories that for sure but it does not make me sympathize or root for them.
I donât really care for surface level aesthetics. You are arguing the elves are facist because they look it but the Orcs are the ones displaying the fascist tendencies and actions. And you are justifying it by head canoning it into some sort of toxic and destructive culture.
A sentient race that kills for the sake of killing and the sport of it. No that race deserves either rehabilitation or death. Like⌠Am I misunderstanding this guy? Is this a language barrier thing? My head is spinning.
Sorry I am just getting pulled in two directions here by this poster⌠maybe i am just not understanding. We got labels like fascism and more empathic response from NEs being demanded here but then we are justifying the Orcs hunting Night elves for sport because their culture demands it⌠like what???
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The Horde has to go beyond and above many bars that some players here would be comfortable with for me to genuinely accept Horde and Alliance characters forming new friendship relationships.
It isnât earned yet, the Horde has done too much evil to just get a pass and becoming buds with the people they were too busy killing for existing. Damn I am still pissed at that stupid wedding story.
It wasnât earned⌠it wasnât earned.
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The Warsong had left Ashenvale after Garroshâs defeat at the Siege of Orgrimmar, as Saurfang described in A Good War, and in that sense, the Warsong Gulch battleground had already been concluded, as the Arathi Basin one was decided with the Alliance victory at the Arathi Warfront, and now we have also learned Alterac Valley has been at peace for years as well. The Warsong returned to Ashenvale as part of Sylvanasâ war, and had remained there even after Sylvanasâ abandonment of the Horde.
My preferred progression of this story would be Gorgonna pulling the Warsong out Ashenvale again and the rest of the Horde there would follow suit, as you have continuously stated that the Horde donât want anything to do with Night Elf content.
Though from your description of desire for a worthy opponent, it sounds as if successfully being pushed out of Ashenvale by the Night Elves would be considered a more worthy outcome by the Warsong, and reestablish the Night Elves as the perfect warriors that Grom described them as in support of the Warsongâs honor of having found opponents with valuable skills on the battlefield.
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The kaldorei are a Horde race in the Alliance. Anyone can see that, and to be members of the Alliance they had to be destroyed. The downfall of the kaldorei began when they were introduced as a faction race that preached homogenization and subservience to the master race.
From then on they could only have had the narrative they had, but kaldorei fans donât understand that the problem was never the Horde, the problem was always the humans and the way Blizzard wants to elevate them above everyone else, even if it is in the most ridiculously colonialist and supremacist way.
Is the Horde okay? What Horde? Iâm not blowing this out of proportion, if youâve been frequenting this forum for the last few years youâll know that the loyalty of Horde players was with the Warcraft 3 Horde. Thatâs what I cringe at Alliance players, you want to claim all the suffering and discontent of the lore to you, please donât project your perceptions onto what Horde players think.
Ah yes my friend, the blonde human with blue eyes who has for some reason been cursed to speak the truth at all times, and acts as the bulwark of universal morals that all races invariably end up adhering to are merely the âgood guyâ,
You still lack a lot of knowledge of how pieces of pop culture are influenced by racist, colonialist speeches and that have a strong appeal of fascist aesthetics.
You are only proving yourself capable of giving an opinion on the surface of what is presented to you. And reject everything you donât understand.
I said that the orcs extract resources from Ashenvale to try to survive and that later the orcs developed a rivalry with the kaldorei, which manifested itself in this sacred duty of the orcs to face them in battle.
Now Iâm going to take a step back and point out how much of a hypocritical person you seem to me. All Azeroth races without exception behave exactly like orcs in this regard. The only difference is that it only affects us when it comes to the races weâve been programmed to empathize with. And because the kaldorei are a playable race, people empathize with them losing battles.
But the truth is that since Warcraft is Warcraft all races in the game that make up the Alliance and Horde are genocidal in the strict sense. Ask a kobold, trogg, quilboar, fulborg, harpy, gnoll, and countless other races what they think of Alliance and Horde saviors.
The kaldorei killed other races following the same code of ethics as the orcs, because this is a moral shared and expanded by the races of Azeroth, I think you are the only one here who did not realize exactly what the races that make up the Horde and Alliance are in that exact sense. And besides, the kaldorei started their relationship with the orcs simply by killing them, if it was kobolds over there cutting down those trees, if it was harpies making nests, how do you think the kaldorei would react?
These are all without exception of all the cultures of Azeroth that have risen to a position of prominence, you want to draw the line from where this started at a time that benefits your argument, but how did a kaldorei empire come to be? Who occupied these lands before?
And to honor whom did the kaldorei conquer these lands? Do you see how ridiculous you sound? Do you understand that the premise of the whole game has always been this? If it offends you then warcraft offends you, and in a sense you should really be offended, because that in our world would be unacceptable.
But thatâs the Warcraft logic my dude. If the kaldorei are morally superior to the orcs, why did they never give these lands back when they carried out hundreds of ethnic cleansings?
You like to quote lore, but apparently you know so little about it. The races of Azeroth define themselves by a perspective of being warrior races, this is the code of warrior races being honored with other races they also consider warrior races. Now whoâs blowing it out of proportion?
Point my head canon, I dare you. What is head canon about orcs defining themselves as a war-oriented race that sees it as something that brings honor, as long as it adheres to a strict code?
Not understanding elements of fascist aesthetics doesnât make you right. You just simply understand this phenomenon as something that exists when it manifests itself in its finished form. And I am saying that fascism is above all an aesthetic phenomenon.
What is ridiculous about your argument is that you donât know what anyone in the academy says about this phenomenon, but you come to say that aesthetics donât matter, when in fact any author on the subject would tell you that fascism is, by definition, aesthetic because it is based on in a lifestyle and conception of understanding the world. And these phenomena are constructed through extreme acceptance of an aesthetic that is well defined by the logic of fascism.
So itâs not my fault youâre illiterate on the subject.
And about sport, the kaldorei also practice it buddy, they always have, what is a kaldorei hunter? What is the whole theme of Maiev? Youâre just being ridiculous.
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I donât know if youâve had an alt you posted on before here or if youâre just relatively new, but posters have been complaining about this since Mists of Pandaria when Blizzard had Night Elves wearing Stormwind tabards and made a scenario to make Varian look smarter than Tyrande. And again in BfA when Blizzard had Jaina parading around in Nazjatar with Shandris barely having a side quest there while Tyrande and Malfurion were left out against their historical enemy of Azshara. As I said, there have never been less people posting on these Story Forums than now.
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This allows them to plant a new Tree, give Night Elf spirits a new home, without the need for building a new player city. This might also mean some upcoming disappointment for Forsaken players as well, unless the Worgen actually get Gilneas. both of which would require a lot less dev work.
War was not part of Orc Culture thoughâŚ
The Orc Clans did not wage war upon each other because of their isolation. They mostly kept to themselves, only meeting during festivals like the Koshâharg. They only waged war when they absolutely had to, such as when they fought against the Gorian Empire under Imperator Molok. Even then, they were content to lay siege to, but not invade the Ogres capital on their continent. It wasnât until the Ogres unleashed the Red Pox on the Orcs that the Orcs responded by asking the elements to wipe out the city, which the elementals did.
Even when the Draenei arrived there was peace between the two races. The Orcs kept to themselves and likewise the Draenei stayed in their settlements, with the only interactions between the two races being the occasional trading venture.
It wasnât until the machinations of the Burning Legion that the Orcs embraced warfare against the Draenei and then Azeroth as a whole after they drank the blood of Mannaroth.
If anything, what Thrall did, attempting to promote peace and return the Orcish people to their shamanistic roots was more in line with Orc culture than waging war.
They are children of the god of war in the game. And war has always been something that played out on Draenor in every possible way. This is perfectly elaborated on in the Garrosh and Grom story, where Grom says that the clanâs borders are currently quiet and that there have been no incursions by other clans trying to capture resources for a a while.
This alludes to the fact that clans did have disputes, this is also seen in the historical disputes of the thunderlord and frost wolf clan, in the skirmishes between the laughing skull and the blackrock. In addition, in this same story Grom speaks of the massive immigration of orcs from other clans to the Warsong clan, as they sought to participate in the war that the Warsong practiced against the ogres, for the simple desire of fame and glory.
For all intents and purposes WOD is a much better characterization of what the orcs were like in Draenor, as that history was actually explored. And Grom even feared the weapons Garrosh spoke of in Azeroth as he thought other clans might use them against the Warsong clan.
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You are saying the Horde, especially where the Orcs are concerned is destroyed, with the heritage quests and their performance so far in DF. they seem to be fine, doing much better actually with all things considering.
Thats literally one character. Hardly representative of all humans or their lore.
Except firstly the Hordeâs survival is not bound to just ashenvale, they have many holdings and a global empire which allows them to pull in vast resources. Whatever was initially your argument about Ashenvale is not true and even if it was they have Azshara now in exchange for peace.
The Kaldorei did not give consent to be abused by the Horde, thats just sick how you push it on them and then get outraged about them resisting them.
As you said the Horde seeks fights and slaughter. they revel in it, the make it a sport because apparently its their culture which I honestly donât believe.
The Kaldorei have 100% reason to defend themselves, the Horde are monsters as you describe them.
So a what aboutism argument.
This doesnât work or justify Russian aggression to Ukraine and it doesnt work here neither. its fallacy to justify fascism and imperialism when you are the one doing it.
want to source this?
Your headcanon that killing people is the Orc culture.
Maiev is a warden, she keeps a prison and if they escape she hunts them down and brings them back to prison.
Its not the same as the Orcs invading a people that were previously living in peace, taking their land, taking their lives because their âcultureâ justified their evil behavior. And no the Kaldorei donât have a sick dogmatic reasoning to go out and hunt people for funzies like the Orcs apparently due.
The only time they leave their land is if they detect fel magic and go put a stop to it otherwise in their experience another world ending demonic invasion would begin.
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I am almost convinced this yet another edgy horde player who is using and projecting the nonesense that Baal used to post about to justify his Erevien takes.
Like he argues how wrong the Night Elves are for not engaging with the Orcs diplomatically and taking pity on them for being⌠poorâŚ
But then argue for this might makes right and killing culture that apparently justifying Orcs to hunt down people for sport because its their god given rightâŚ
Its just so bizarre.
Definitely one of those people that thinks just because a race looks like monsters doesnt mean that they are /s
In the end this was just propaganda spread by Garrosh, as we saw in Battlefield: Barrens where the Horde was gathering a ridiculous amount of resources from the Barrens, to the point that the forces against Garrosh armed themselves by taking the resources that his forces were gather. Garrosh also worsened the conditions of Durotarâs population by having his Dark Shaman corrupt the land and air to make it even less farmable, and was only putting all the resources he was gathering into war efforts rather than actually providing sustainability for the Horde.
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Uhh⌠no they are not. Not even remotely close in fact. What youâre saying flies in the face of the actual lore we have.
WoD lore is different. Thatâs an alternate universe, and in that alternate universe war may play a larger role in Orc culture than it does in the main universe.
An Alternative universe that also made the Orcs go on another planetwide genocide of the Draenei not due to the Burning Legion manipulating them or demon blood corrupting their minds but because they are evil⌠or at least their culture is.
WoD was not a good look for the Orcs.
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Iâm fairly sure Akhinoz meant Orcs having evolved from the elementals that Aggramar did experiments with on Draenor.
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Again, you only see the trees, you are unable to see the forest. If Anduin is just one character why do all characters tend to gravitate towards him and serve as a springboard to highlight Anduinâs qualities?
Youâre just a fanboy of this story that puts a blond boy with blue eyes in a position that supplants the values, truths and morals of all other races in the game, Iâm almost giving myself the trouble to look for your posts, because Iâm sure that you defend Goldenâs work and the way she portrays Anduin and humans in the lore.
Donât be ridiculous, how many times do I have to say that I think the Horde should abandon Ashenvale altogether? I was talking about an event in Warcraft 3, and you try to distort the whole discussion by talking about Cataclysm and BFA, when I already agreed with you that the Horde was fascist and imperialist in these events.
In the events of Warcraft 3 the Horde was not a global empire, it was merely a race of underprivileged peoples, roaming Azeroth and seeking some resources to survive. Itâs no use trying to disqualify my argument, thatâs exactly the Horde lore at that time, your opinion on that fact is not able to change them.
What I said is that the Horde values worthy opponents, and that orcs especially seek death in battle as warriors, the kaldorei came to be honorable opponents for the orcs, but they also battled countless other races of Azeroth and aliens.
LOL I was waiting for the moment that you would use Godwinâs law in this discussion, it came sooner than I thought. In case you didnât know, whoever invokes it usually lost the argument, ok?
Are Kaldorei not a warrior race? Stormwind humans are literally inspired by knightly tales, but arenât they a warrior race? Stormwind is literally portrayed in lore as the kingdom of warriors.
Trolls, Taurens, Dwarves, and nearly every other race on Azeroth are races with martial aspects that surpass any civilization on Earth at any time in history, and you want sources? Please understand the game you are playing.
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