Because its their land.
Thats like saying the Natives in Brazil deserve to get killed and their lands taken away for more farm lands and mining because other sentient Brazilians deserve food, wages and economic prosperity.
Thats no way to justify things.
No they did that after finding out who lived there. Please see cataclysm and bfa for how that went.
I don’t understand what you are trying to justify here… are you really trying to morally justify the Orcs and their imperialism?
I am guessing this is in reference to Daelin deforesting thunder ridge? Wasn’t that Burning Blade? Cycle of Hatred right?
There’s another way to handle this contingency, but that requires something called empathy, and that’s exactly what happened in parts of Brazil, because I speak like a Brazilian.
There is a whole population in the Brazilian Amazon of migrants, called “ribeirinhos” who are not from that region. They arrived in that region and started to live in indigenous lands, adopted the indigenous lifestyle, began to worship their gods, and live a lifestyle very similar to theirs.
No one had to die for that, what happened was a process of cultural exchange. You must be talking about the recent Yanomami scandal, but know that most of those miners are actually from Peru, Venezuela and the Guianas.
So yes, there are ways to create a relationship of coexistence between these people, without this ridiculous speech of “these are our lands”. Other peoples have found this form. The kaldorei on the other hand had as diplomacy to just go out killing all the orcs they saw in front of them.
I heard this Bolsenaro was a real pos and in a time where the planet is going to absolute hell its really shocking and saddening to hear about more forests burning and more water sources becoming toxic sludge while the polar ice caps are melting at even more frightening rates and entire species going extinct at insane rates every year.
Thats why I really like Night Elves. I am originally from Iran and it is a very dry climate, very little water or green unless you go to specific places. So nature to me is very precious and totally undertand natives willing to die to preserve what they have.
Now regarding the Orcs, I am not going to excuse their imperialism or their blatant land grabs. They have shamans and druids, they could try growing things and cultivating things rather than killing and grabbing what isn’t theirs then justifying themselves because their opponent did not submit fast enough.
As always the drama of orc imperialism. The orcs were attacked first, never given the opportunity to establish any diplomacy with the kaldorei, and they began to retaliate militarily against the kaldorei. This is the typical trajectory of a military conflict when there is no room for diplomacy.
The kaldorei never tried any kind of diplomacy with the orcs when they saw them in Ashenvale in Warcraft 3, they simply started attacks, the orcs were terrified by the level of proficiency of the amazon warriors and started a counterattack.
None of this justifies the term “imperialism”, this is merely Alliance discourse claiming the moral high ground.
We are not discussing only one single event in WC3.
We are discussing all of it.
WC3
Wow
Cata
MoP
and BFA
Diplomacy was definitely an option at any point in these and so was actually growing and cultivating rather than invading and taking what isn’t yours to take.
Bolsonaro is a neo-fascist, who exists simply because of the immense power that these big techs of social media have in people’s lives. And because of the delusion that reigns in American society that free speech is a good thing in itself, as they have never heard of the paradox of tolerance, some parts of the world suffer the heavy consequences of the influence that these companies have had on our political process. , with all its industry of fake news and promotion of far right ideas.
His government is an anomaly in our history, and the truth is that in the last 200 years Brazil has taken better care of its forests than any other country in the world, our energy matrix is the cleanest in the world, we have more biomes and reforested areas than any other country in the world. We have countless defects in this area, we commited crimes, we slaughter native peoples. But this is the history of humanity, despite this we are the only place in the world where 70 tribes still live without contact with the rest of humanity.
About the kaldorei, I already said above that love for nature taken to the last consequences is something devoided of sense, because nature is a cruel god. Theres no native people in my country that love nature simply for the love of it. They know very well that nature is something to be deeply feared and it is even an illusion to think that these peoples did not act in a strongly way to shape the forest, since there is almost conclusive evidence today that the Amazon was never really a natural phenomenon, but an immense garden that the natives have cultivated over millennia, with thousands of these species being the result of hybridization processes.
And because excavation sites were recently discovered in which there were at least 20 cities with more than 500 thousand inhabitants in the heart of Amazonia more than 5 thousand years ago.
Thats not the Kaldorei lore, thats wood elf lore from Warhammer where a flower dying means death for the man that stepped on it.
The core part of Kladorei is living in harmony with nature, the reason why those Orcs died in that single event where they were shot at with no warning was 2 parts.
the Orcs smelled of fel magic
The night Elves were patrolling against fel invaders for thousands of years.
They later also attacked humans because they thought they were allied to the Orcs. But yeah you won’t see me arguing that the Night Elves are perfect diplomats and do no wrong but I am not going to defend the orcs and their actions and I find it odd that you are.
You are using one single event over misunderstandings to justify everything since. Come on…
You want to establish the premise where it interests you and where there is justification for your arguments.
I’m saying that in the days of Vanilla, the existence of that battleground has to do with the fact that the orcs thought they deserved to live there, because their existence depended on Ashenvale’s resources.
If that sounds imperialist to you, unfortunately survival is something in my book that surpasses speeches from those who have the moral high ground.
I am fully aware that the Horde of Garrosh and the Horde of Sylvanas are imperialists, and that even they are explicitly fascist. But I was talking about how this conflict started.
And I don’t see the orcs as villains at the beginning of this conflict, but I do agree that Garrosh and Sylvanas’s Horde were villains in every possible way.
On a story level both the Orcs and Night Elves have justification. Its good when both sides are on the right. I am fine with that. Its makes for a better story and game where I can get pumped to push out invaders and you get pumped for securing resources for your survival. With Azshara going to the Horde they no longer have this excuse which makes all their attacks in Ashenvale seem more evil.
That has shattered though when Sylvanas and Garrosh go on a killing spree and bring a race to near extinction. I thought I was talking to another more well spoken Erevien who just wants Alliance lands for the glory of the Horde.
The Warsong had no interested in establishing settlements. The Warsong had been sent to do so as a punishment.
Thrall: Have you lost what’s left of your mind, Grom? I gave you a direct order to leave the humans alone! What the hell is wrong with you?
Grom Hellscream: Don’t lecture me, pup! The wretches deserved death! Don’t you feel it, Thrall? It’s like the old days… like the demons are near.
Thrall: I don’t know what’s come over you and your men, but this bloodlust is a liability that I can’t afford.
Grom Hellscream: I’m sorry, Thrall. You’re right. I… I can handle it.
Thrall: I can’t take that chance, Grom. Take your clan into the northern forest and build us a settlement. I’ll come and find you after we’ve reached the Oracle.
The Warsong Outriders that started the Warsong Gulch battleground had likely remained outside of Thrall’s ability to control back in original World of Warcraft, because all the Warsong really cared about was battle, as Gorgonna described:
Lok-tar ogar! It defines the Warsong. We value skill on the battlefield above all, and are known for our fearsome battle cries.
Though she adds:
Despite this, we have learned the lessons of the past. We will never again sacrifice our honor to achieve victory. The fall of Garrosh Hellscream has ensured that.
I would be honored to fight by your side as Warsong, <name>.
Gorgonna had also not agreed with her sister’s desires to invade Ashenvale for resources. But it has yet to be seen if she will remove the Warsong from Ashenvale, or if the Warsong will maintain conflict with the Night Elves for the sake of battle and victory in whatever way they deem honorable.
Your trend of only responding to low hanging fruit posts like Smallioz’s is what inclines me to believe you are role playing rather than actually looking to discuss the lore.
Yeah I am honestly kind of over the Alliance attacking the Horde just for the sake of attacking them.
Moving to Dragon Isles and being away from the Horde seems like the best solution.
The Horde can’t be trusted and the Alliance has proven to be less than dependable when it counted. So really it seems like the best solution.
I have resolved myself that the Orcs and the Horde are just too good at killing and invading. Smacking them on the head would serve no purpose than justify their next imperialistic land grab or ethnic cleansing. Next time they try it they will die by dragon fire.
I don’t like Erevien’s roleplay, and I always thought his defense of the Warcraft II Horde was bizarre. He got to such a level of paranoia about this that he posted in my EK and Kalimdor revamp thread that there shouldn’t be changes in those areas, fearing that there is a real threat that Alleria will conquer Silvermoon, something that would be delusional to say the least.
I’ve said several times here on this forum that my wish is that the orcs have nothing to do with the kaldorei, that they leave the lands of the kaldorei, and that there are never again quests that involve orcs and kaldorei.
My problem is with this current discourse that I see from kaldorei fans in this forum defending a WOT resolution that is done through the humiliation of the orcs. This I will not accept, and if that happens I will become more imperialist than Erevien, because then I will want the complete extermination of the kaldorei.
But Thrall had bro, he said build us a settlement. He was interested in having these resources.
Wasn’t the Horde then desperate for Ashenvale’s resources? Didn’t she even negotiate with the kaldorei later on the possibility of having access to these resources?
And if the Warsong clan loved battle, again, that doesn’t make them inherently villainous, they just simply found the kaldorei a worthy race to practice their only sport which was battle. I know this may sound illogical to you, but in the lore of the orcs, it was an honor to do battle with a worthy race and the kaldorei were that to them, a rival they longed to meet on the battlefield, so much so that they felt bad for them. having lost their honor in that battle, as Gorgronna claims.
It is not the battle with the kaldorei that makes the orcs villains, it is the fact that they did not honorably battle the kaldorei, and resorted to nefarious resources to achieve victory. If Ashenvale’s theme was limited to this rivalry, it would have been an immensely better lore than the one we had. And all races would feel justified in their actions.
What resolution would you suggest? The NEs have been on the receiving end of massive Ls at the hands of the Horde for many, many years and their core fantasy is just hold on to what they have and guard the Well of Eternity and the Emerald dream from evil.
The Horde got Azshara in exchange to stay out of Ashenvale and leave the Night Elves in peace but the Horde went back on its word and still occupies parts of Ashenvale… the lore is weird with Ashenvale.
This kind of makes the Horde the bad guys here, the Night Elves didn’t sign up to be the punching bag of the Horde to sate their bloodlust.
Anyway the Warsong won, the Horde player into this all night elves must die won too I guess, the Night Elves are relocating to Dragon Isles.
Also doesn’t this whole mindset of the Warsong go against your whole “How dare the Night Elves deny the orcs” they are literally killing Night Elves for sport according to you… how is this moral? How are the Night Elves the fascists in this equation? They are just defending themselves.
Some Orcs, including Gorgonna, believe Thrall intentionally put them in Durotar to atone for the Horde’s history:
“To the north is Ashenvale Forest, full of everything we could ever need, but did we settle there? No! Instead we live in a desert! So tell me, Hellscream, why would the good warchief, who loves his people so, condemn us to this wasteland when just up the river there is far more bounty? He is either corrupt or incompetent, or both, and you seem to fit right in!”
That was the last straw.
“Treason!” Garrosh roared. He took a step toward her menacingly. “You dare insult the warchief? Shut your mouth, traitor, or I will shut it for you!”
“Go ahead and—" she began, clenching her hands into fists, bracing against the anticipated blow.
“No! Krenna!” a new voice yelled. Garrosh looked over: another orc was running toward them.
“Krenna, you hold your tongue!” she continued, stepping in between the two of them.
The one with the eye patch—Krenna—glared at the person who addressed her, then snorted and stood down.
“I’ll be on my way, then, Gorgonna.” She heaved her bag over her shoulder and left without another word to either of them. Garrosh made to follow her, but Gorgonna immediately turned and grabbed his arm.
“Please stop,” she said. “I am sorry about my sister. She does not mean what she says!”
“She better not,” Garrosh growled. Gorgonna sighed, releasing her grasp.
“She and I spent our childhoods in the internment camps after the Second War. She is grateful that the warchief liberated us, but…" She hesitated, then added quietly, “She thinks he does not do enough.”
“And you?” Garrosh demanded. Gorgonna looked down the path that Krenna had gone and did not immediately speak.
“I reap what all of them have sown. Is there not some payment owed?”
“And who would set the price?” Garrosh demanded. Her attitude angered him. Did she have no pride at all? “Who could possibly have the right to make that call?”
“I will pay what the warchief asks,” she answered.