I don’t like it either, but Alex was the head of the narrative department for WoW and the burning of Teldrassil was his idea. And given what we know about him with the lawsuit, he sounds like the guy who is, “do it my way or its the highway”.
Well if thats the case in the future I will hold off on any comment for 30 minutes before finding a post I replied to is now several times larger and different than what I actually responded to.
Anyway.
In the context of WoW. Alliance, Tyrande and etc have several times “stopped” the cycle only for the abuser (Horde) to do it again and again. So is the solution to keep turning the other cheek?
If you want to address this current story from where does Tyrande’s pursuit of Sylvanas border on becoming the abuser themselves? Saying “Stopping the cycle” is a pretty but empty rhetoric. How do you actually achieve it in the current scenario?
And. This is where I will end my post because yet again another edit. But I think I made my point so I don’t think I need to address anything else.
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If it stops you from jumping to conclusions and trying to paint someones words as something completely different so you can score some cheap internet points. Then good.
Of course not. Standing up for yourself and confronting the abuser is another way to end the cycle. The cycle starts anew when the abused becomes an abuser themselves. Transferring their anger towards other people. In most cases, these people have nothing to do with their abuser in the first place. In the case of Catra, this was Adora mainly (but that was what Shadow Weaver wanted. Divide and conquer). But also Scorpia and Entrapa (these are an example of people who had nothing to do with the abuser directly). All 3 of these wanted to help Catra break the cycle in some way. Scorpia leaving hurt Catra the most. As it was at this point that Catra was completely alone and it was all her fault. Meanwhile Glimmer was left alone after she decided that winning the war, even if it means using an unstable magic powered universal weapon of mass destruction. Which both Adora and Bow were clearly against.
When she intentionally endangers others and repeats similar or the same actions Sylvanas did. Let me know when Tyrande leads a genocide against a race to fuel the power of a higher power. As that was Legion, but mainly Ner’zhul for Arthas and Zovaal for Sylvanas.
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According to Blizzard the Horde is the “Other people” now.
So is Sylvanas with having remerged her soul.
Tyrande had a choice. Renewal or kill sylvanas… the message is clear.
leads a genocide is a loaded term but are you saying the Alliance should not declare war on the Horde? They have amble reason to do it now without needing any reasons but I assume doing so would feed into your cycle of abuse argument.
So the solution is to wait to get attacked again.
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And are you saying that Blizzard is correct in this regard? Besides, Sylvanas and Nathanos were the people Tyrande was mainly after and that is clearly shown in the story thus far.
No, Sylvanas has made it very clear that she is still responsible for what she did. We have her cinematic with Uther and now with the Anduin one to showcase this. We also know that Sylvanas gives herself up to face Tyrandes judgement after Zovaal is dealt with.
You have a nasty habit of only reading what you want to read and draw false conclusions in order to ensure that.
What I am describing is what the cycle of abuse is about.
Tell me, since you are clearly far more knowledgeable in this field, what is your definition of the cycle of abuse and how does it continue? And how does one break it? You seem quite offended by my take. So what is yours?
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I am saying realistically Tyrande will not be attacking the Quil Boar for what the Horde did. If Blizzard actually presented Tyrande genociding the Horde as you said. Is that justified? Or does the Horde still count as other people?
As for Tyrande just pursuing Nathanos and Sylvanas. You think that makes sense given how complicit everyone at the Horde was? Saurfang included?
being responsible, carrying the burden, feeling sorry etc and etc and etc. Means nothing if she will not be receiving the punishment due.
Its like the rich kid that gets the slap on the wrist. Was justice served? Technically. But was it really? No.
Yeah the kid admitted he made a mistake and totally feels bad.
And that makes the whole situation righted doesnt it?
Not really, I just cut through the empty rhetoric and make it clear what these messages actually mean in practical terms.
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I like how Smallioz didn’t accept my challenge.
Then again, he likes putting words into my mouth and automatically drawing a conclusion from whatever reply I give him even before I give it.
And you are doing such a wonderful job of not doing that. If you were, you would’ve described your actual take on the cycle of abuse and how to break it fully. Instead of asking questions that you ignore the answer to. Only taking what you want to hear and twisting it towards that outcome.
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Because I didn’t see it. You edited it in later.
And you tell me about
respond to the post and I will reply to your new edited post later. I get the feeling by the time i come back this post will be much much longer.
Or you didn’t want to see it. You cherry picked the first sentence and tried to claim that the rest was an edit. yet on that very post there doesn’t seem to be an edit symbol on it. Strange.
When you initially made the post I quoted your entire post and responded to it by portion. Responding to things line by line is difficult and I am interested in responding to the spirit of the argument than the individual sentences.
And if there is no edit icon in my post is because I didn’t edit anything after the 30 second or 1 minute long grace period the forums gives you. Nothing strange about it.
And to answer your “challenge” it depends on the context of the abuse and abuser. There is no pretty one size fits all solution or playbook. People respond to abuse differently, in terms of nations and groups of aggressors it is much more different and selective of who deserves pity and mercy while who or which group deserves swift and terrible retribution.
It is a bit sus though that I can edit something in well before your response to the post. Like the edit I made was done 3-4 minutes before you posted your reply. Surely you would’ve seen it since these forums update posts in real time. No webpage reload needed.
So using, “well you edited it in” is not really an excuse when I can do the edit long before you actually reply.
You are dodging. If we are done then have a nice day.
I always find it odd that it is usually the person who first starts the argument tends to be the one who wants to end it when it doesn’t go their way. Instead of you know, actually continuing the argument they started.
I have asked you several times to address the points I made. But you insist on talking about how somehow I control these forum’s edit icon. If you are not going to address the points then there is nothing to talk about.
I even responded to your “challenge”.
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I have addressed the points you made. And I have ended up repeating myself over and over again. So why bother doing it for another round when you will just ignore it completely.
Would be nice to supply some examples like I did. Since you know, examples help showcase your point of view and reinforces it.
Cause at the moment this is just empty rhetoric. So I am eager to see you try and deconstruct your own words. But we both know that will never happen.
If that is how you feel then it seems there is nothing left to talk about.
Have a nice day.
To respond to your edit:
That is not what a rhetoric is… are you claiming that when it comes to abuse there is in fact a one size fits all solution? This very notion would mean the concept of therapy is a scam.
In a vacuum, Sylvanas acknowledging her pursuit of vengeance against Arthas made her as bad as him is fine. There are numerous storylines like this.
The problem comes when this realization comes after the genocide of a people. As well as constructing a world war that sends countless souls to hell. It’s worse when this realization will be used to justify why Tyrande shouldn’t seek anything. Justice or vengeance.
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If that is the path they take you are totally right; I am not so sure they will.
In the PTR data there was some indication that Tyrande will judge by combat. Whatever it is they do, Blizz has (by all appearances) been super blunt this whole patch that Sylvanas isn’t getting off with a slap on the wrist; she is at fault for her deeds and will be made to pay for them.
The issue I think is Blizzard has cried wolf so many times in recent history that even when they are trying to be truthfully blunt people refuse to believe them anymore. That’s a hard place for a company to come back from.
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We know that Sylvanas will on her own accord jump into the maw to search for Nathanos.
That is the conclusion. What possible content before this can possibly indicate that this is what Tyrande, the Night Elves or Alliance looked for when they pursued Sylvanas? We already know the “Punishment”.
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The psychology behind the circle of abuse begins with the person himself. To move forward, to take a different path, one must look at both levels. The external - as well as internal - side effect.
The Horde cannot position itself as a victim of Sylvanas in terms of night elf genocide. And their complicity is undeniable, that is the external effect of the situation, it is first a purely factual analysis of the circumstances.
Tyrande - representing the night elves as a whole and only as a dummy just in this scenario - now has the outside effect, facts. The inner effect is her own position, to this situation. The circle can’t be ended by a simple “move on” because this circle was built on so much blood, on so much innocent blood that the INJUSTICE of this whole situation has a factual so gigantic external effect that the internal position to move away from it can’t be detached from Tyrande’s personality and her different roles in it.
Here Tyrande as a woman and family being, as a leader of the night elves, as the chosen one of Elune, will have to take different standpoints, which will have to result together in the whole picture.
The question is not whether Tyrande can forgive to break the circle but which argument has the strongest effect inside. If, for example, the leader of the night elves prevails, the Judgement will be much harder, more lasting and absolute than, say, Tyrande as a person. She may be able to forgive, but as a leader she cannot demand that from her people. if the entire move on situation will be too much for her as a whole, she could break under her own dessicion, because this “move on” could be too much to bear(as in reality, no one would LIKE to be in such a situation as tyrande right now is)
Sylvanas situation of evaluation has been much simpler than Tyrande’s. She was a general, but she was never the leader of her entire people during the Scourge attack on QT.
The complexity of a circle of this kind is that there are hard facts that make a “move on”, very difficult. And the second complexity is that this fanbase would definitely perceive Tyrande as weak, no matter how much personal strength that would require, although this move on requires many times more strength than revenge. And the night elves already did it so often, once again is just too much…I can understand everyone who has no more understanding for this entire situation.
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