The faction merge is definitely needed. But they need to make a really powerful case for why Alliance is supposed to get along with the Horde in a unified faction.
Horde Player =/= Horde faction merging with Alliance.
No, I’m not sure what reasoning Ren has.
But she doesn’t represent every Sylvanas fan and I also think that characterising her as some sort of fanatic is a bit much.
She’s allowed to enjoy Sylvanas and she’s allowed to feel excited about developments in the story of Sylvanas. Just as I don’t think that her interpretation regarding Arthas/Sylvanas should be framed as the only valid one, I don’t think that other people’s feelings regarding what’s happening with Sylvanas are valid to the exclusion of her feelings.
I don’t understand her not wanting to actually engage in discussion, but that’s a different situation to the fanaticism you were describing.
My point is that if she’s going to refuse to engage honestly, for whatever reason, she can’t expect others to try and understand her perspective. Because she’s not trying to understand theirs.
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This was said in the lounge thread and I didn’t want it to get lost. This is all that probably needs to be said on the matter as far as I’m concerned.
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There’s always going to be a case for horde players and alliance players working together or with semi neutral npc’s. We did so during bfa when we were supposed to be at war. The plot can always dictate that.
In the larger horde vs alliance narrative, there’s somewhat compelling reasons why hostilities should continue to fester. On Kalimdor, the horde will always be expecting a reprisal from the night elves. They could just decide to make a pre-emptive strike. Neither side is going to trust each other and there will always be hot heads on either side willing to push the issue.
The devs said bfa was supposed to end the faction war, but all they did was create a new set of conditions as to why the faction war would continue.
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From the Alliance side absolutely.
What motivation does the Horde has to fight the Alliance?
I don’t know if she’s specifically referring to me there, but it feels likely as I’m the only one she overtly stated she “didn’t know”.
I don’t think that’s a particularly fair representation of my interactions with her here. I’ve been very understanding of her position and have in fact shut down multiple attempts by others to attack her on a more personal level despite my disagreeing with her on certain things.
If an open discourse can’t be held with me under those circumstances, then it’s a bit unfair and makes interacting with her should your views not align with hers or you not be deemed to be “known” pretty pointless.
I get neurodivergence, I’ve been medicated nearly my entire life because I’m neurodivergent myself. I understand the struggle that can accompany it. But we also can’t use our neurodivergence as an excuse, that’s not fair to those around us.
We’re over 900 posts in on a thread created 9 days ago. A lot of people have tried having honest discussion about a lot of these points, if not all. A lot of us have tried to see the other side, shown our proof, ask for theirs, and come out the other side.
I’m not going to speak for anyone but myself. But thus far, I’ve watched arguments such as “but that’s CDev canon and must be ignored in favor of new canon” to “that’s new canon and it contradicts this old canon, so it must be ignored” to “I don’t read the books, so they don’t count compared to older material I do know” to “this single word was used this one, single time, and if I remove the context of it, then it proves my point”. After 100-ish daily posts of the same bullcrap, it’s pretty hard to rehash that same argument all over again, just because someone new brought up an old, debated for three days already point. It’s tiring to have brought citations, quotes, links and more to showcase why you feel the way you feel, and then be expected to go through it all again, just because someone skipped all that and repeat the argument all over again.
Especially when you are already being attacked for having different views from a minority of people here who think they’re a majority.
I’m not accusing you of any of that, btw. Just putting out there how it might color someone’s desire to debate a point you want to debate.
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This is why many of my posts are just copy pastes from previous posts I’ve made. No point in manually retyping a point already made or again looking up references already given.
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Why do anti-Sylvanas types and hardcore Night-Elf fans have such a hard time admitting this simple truth? There was never any scenario where Tyrande was going to have satisfaction of the Id without turning her into another villain-batted character. I’ve seen more Night Elf posters demanding that Tyrande die than Sylvanas fans.
Also this thread has robbed me of a days worth of likes and I’m okay with that.
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I absolutely understand that, however I’d say that if you are at that point then wouldn’t it be better to not continue to engage in the discourse? I can definitely understand being burnt out after feeling as though you’ve been rehashing the same things over and over. That said, if you’re at the point where you are just rehashing without openly engaging with the other person’s side, then you’re not actually engaging in the discussion - which is unfair to people who are trying to engage in actual discussion.
There’s all of this understanding for the perspective you’ve posed, but what about understanding of the other perspective? The person who wants, and is trying, to engage in honest and open discussion but is met with a brick wall because the person opting to engage in the discussion is burnt out.
I understand that, and in this case I have had people who disagree with her try to use my disagreeing with her as a platform to further their own opinions of her. In each case I shut them down in no uncertain manner because that’s not why I’m here and I have no desire to further the agenda’s of others. I understand that it’s tiring to feel like you’ve had to constantly defend yourself, but once again if somebody can display a willingness to understand the perspective you’ve put forward and a desire to not engage in personal attacks against you - then do they not deserve the benefit of the doubt?
Once again I understand fully that it can be exhausting, but I’d say that if you are at the point where you’re soo worn out on it all that you can no longer engage in open discourse with somebody who’s displayed good will and a desire to establish shared understanding then you should probably just keep out of the discussion entirely. Because that’s not fair to that person (whether that person be me or anybody else who’s actively attempting to discuss things in good faith).
I appreciate that, and like I said - my perspective is I feel it’s a bit unfair to engage in the discussion at all if you don’t actually plan to take in the other persons point of view.
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I would just like to say that I thought I was setting a perfectly reasonable boundary, not wanting to debate with someone demanding that I debate with them.
And, I’m glad I trusted my gut. The red flags are obvious now, and I am confident I made the right decision.
(Kaleaon, I too am out of likes now, but I would absolutely like this comment of yours)
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There hasn’t been a risk of Tyrande dying since Elune gaslighted Tyrande into not wanting to give her life for vengeance any more. Killing Sylvanas at this point wouldn’t villain bat Tyrande, and without the Jailer’s backing Tyrande wouldn’t even need the Night Warrior’s extra power to kill Sylvanas.
That’s easy for some, not for others. And it’s also situationally dependent.
If I’m still having a back and forth with, say, Amadis and I think he might see my point if I try phrasing it differently, I’ll keep going in spite of frustration I might have with Kaleaon (sorry, your name was just there). And because I’m responding to Amadis, I’m going to keep responding to Kaleaon, even if it’s just to say “OMG, already did this, scroll up” or just a simple “but nah tho”, because… Well, it’s pretty much a mental compulsion I have to always respond to people. I would rather someone think I’m dismissing them than ignoring them.
Absolutely, but I’m also someone who always tries to give people the benefit of the doubt. I’m very trusting, too trusting, and always assume everything is probably just some misunderstanding, cultural/language difference, or an inability on my part to properly express myself.
But I also haven’t had hate-threads made about me, haven’t had people pretend to be my friend for ulterior motives here (except the one guy), haven’t had people swap to alts to try and gaslight me (they usually do that on their mains), haven’t had forum drama spill over to other forms of social media, or any number of other situations that might make it harder to assume benefit of the doubt.
I have more room to trust that others might because I’m very anti-social online, spend more time making allegedly funny snide comments directed at the game devs than actually trying to discuss matters, frequently censor my opinions because I don’t want my critique to spawn a 900+ post hate thread, and I rarely talk about my fandom for certain characters because I know what that opens up. But not everyone can or should behave like I do.
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I’ve been invited to the story forum discord multiple times. One time Anyaceltica even sent me an in-game mail in WoW itself telling me to join. I have declined every time as I do not do well to keep up with people in real time.
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I’m there! Sometimes.
Don’t worry about keeping up, it’s been very quiet there.
I don’t “get” Discord. It feels like a wierd clique where I don’t undersand the inside jokes.
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In all honesty, I don’t get any social media. How does one even read twitter threads or reddits? It’s too much hassle.
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I feel you I have a Twitter for WoW but I rarely use it. Twitter seems way more toxic than the forums.
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That’s fair. I’d definitely prefer that somebody just say “already discussed this, don’t want to discuss it again” as opposed to trying to engage in a discussion when they aren’t really feeling like doing so.
But everybody is different and won’t always respond to things the same or how we might prefer/would ourselves - you have a point there and I should have considered the individual aspect more.
Once again what you’ve said here is fair and is insight and perspective that I neither had nor even considered.
Each of us do have our own experiences that shape the way we interact with the world around us and perceive things. Those experiences are valid.
From my perspective the frustration stems from spending time and effort to try and eloquently and comprehensively explain my perception only to feel t hat it all was just totally disregarded. I’m only human myself, I’m not just some picture on a screen. I have my own experiences, my own strengths and short fallings.
I’m sorry if you felt like I was demanding that you debate with me - my understanding is that we were actively debating and my frustration stemmed from feeling that my perspective was being disregarded entirely and I didn’t understand why.
I have more insight into it all now.
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Thank you, but it was the engaging with Smallioz that really slammed the door for me. I’ve experienced harassment, I got death threats and a doxxing attempt. It’s not that I don’t engage with new individuals, it’s just that I’m testy from previous indiviuals who have betrayed my trust.
I don’t doubt that you think you want honest discourse but not everyone does. Zahir abmitted to not even caring about authentic discourse he, just wants to point out when he thinks people are wrong.
I’m not someone who white washes Sylvanas btw, it just seems that way because her criticism is extreeme. If you actually read our comments both Deathisfinal and I both validate people who point out Sylvanas as a monster, people fail to accept the fact that she’s not a monster 100% of the time.
I don’t appreciate the attitude of “stupid girl, she’s so wrong” and I got that vibe from you that turned me off. The “I’m not like the crazy Sylvanas fans” also, how is that conversing “in good faith?”
I’m really not interested in discussing anything further. I do appreciate your apology though.
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