I mean, we both know that isn’t what happened at all. But I’d never expect you to admit your failings, manipulations and inherent toxicity. You were called out for manipulative behavior and didn’t like that.
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You are not wrong and that’s why BFA Sylvanas was a strong canon divergence from Legion Sylvanas. Up until Legion Sylvanas abhorred necromancy because it was like rape. She vowed to stop it…
…but then she violated Derrek Proundmoore’s mind in a way that was so unlike her that it made all of our heads spin.
When I say Sylvanas was OOC in BFA this is what I mean. Zelling was pretty on brand but Derek was not like anything she’s ever stood for.
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Smallz has what we call little man syndrome, he compensates by attacking and gaslighting others
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The next step is to accuse me of quote sniping.
There are many other examples that are more blatant but why bother when it doesn’t lead to anything more positive? Its not like they are going to be more civil or constructive.
They thrive on this.
And… here we go. I literally didnt even see this one until i posted what I did. Its just incredible.
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sylvanas used necromancy since…cata, and wanted even to improve her use of necromancy with the prime valkyr to create an endless line of valkyrs.
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There’s also the Koltira incident.
Anyway, my point is that certain words carry so much emotional and cultural baggage (usually for good reason) that it’s hard to have a discussion around them because everyone starts at approximately 8/10 excitement level when you use 'em.
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one also should remind here, not every kind of necromancy…is identical, there is also that one animates only the dead body…but does not bind the soul to it. So Kel’thuzad’s attempts for example until he had the lichking as a mentor were so far no more than rats to animate…dead rats, only the lk brought this high form of necromancy into the world.
…did he, though? There’s been animated troll mummies around for a while. I never got the impression that was a recent development.
I believe the lines are getting blurred here^^
You believe that since she wanted to gobble everyone’s soul that the narrative comments and Sylvanas inner monologue about her plan to go about Operation Maw Gooble was a lie. So, that means that the burden of proof is on you.
Lets be very specific here if we can; do you have a reference that counters Sylvanas original plan to ie:
“The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own
interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”
“And that is how you defeat Stormwind.” Saurfang was in awe. It was brilliant.
Was this a lie, if so where is the reference? I thought it was very clear that Sylvanas would have much rather have taken down the entire Alliance systematically, rather than to approach it like a bull in a china shop. I thought it was very clear that the burning of Teldrassil at that moment in time was something she didn’t want, but made a last minute decision to burn it at that time due to Saurfang’s mistake.
Again, I’m not saying that eventually she wouldn’t have burned it down, along with Org, along with the UC, along with Silvermoon. The discussion is primarily about the time in which she wanted the burning to happen.
To add to that, there’s also the fact not everyone here has the same competency in English or comes from the same culture. In some languages or some cultures, the R-word might only be used for the specific, SA act of violation, and the idea of applying it to other forms of violation might be foreign. Additionally, it’ll heavily depend on not just the reader, but also the translator of the original source material how something from a book comes across. I’ve read a few books translated from another language where something about the translation transformed a scene into a more or less serious situation than was present in the original language and source.
Naw, we have sentient undead from before the Lich King came around. There’s a “lich” guy from the old forsaken start zone who predates the LK coming around, and Meryl whatshisface too.
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I don’t need to believe anything. Its what happened my guy…
Sylvanas first claims there is a plan to make the conquest of Teldrassil easier by making them focus on an evacuation.
She then reaches teldrassil and orders it burned and has her Horde forces make sure they burn it as fast as possible to give even less them for people to evacuate. When its clear she intends to take no prisoners.
First she and her fans accused Saurfang to forcing her to make this decision.
Then we learn that Sylvanas was always planning to kill as many people as possible for her shadowlands plan.
This is all very clear cut case and requires very little conjecture and rationalization.
And I don’t understand why you are trying to spin this as somehow Sylvanas being benevolent. It is simply not true.
She literally ordered it. So yes.
Her plan. This thing that she sold Saurfang on did not happen at all in what she described.
Additionally, how can she claim that the Alliance would be paralyzed by inaction when Genn, Tyrande AND MALFURION are demanding Andiun to take action?
How can Malfurion be demanding action if his survival was the reason the burning happened in the first place? She makes no indication that he needed to die for her to take prisoners.
hoo…??? you meant the type from the island…he was an former student of kel’thuzad…and meryl wasn´t…an necromancer, he himself turned undead, because of the demonsoul…but he never used necromancy.
The Burning Legion used Necromancy during the War of the Ancients.
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yeaaah, and? The burning legion were no mortals on azeroth…guys, i speak only about the mortal races of azeroth…not about the whole universe.
I’m still under the impression trolls did it first.
…but it’s not like anyone respects trolls anyway. D:
There’s also the soul constructs the draenei use, though that’s admittedly in a different undead vein. And not on Azeroth. Nevermind.
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Don’t know who you’re thinking of, this former student of KT, but nope. The guy I’m thinking of wasn’t a former student of Kel’Thuzad at all.
… And, after looking for who it was, turns out he turned undead like most forsaken did, so that’s a wash anyway.
Meryl used his own magic to become undead. By the time he first encountered Kathra’natir, he was already undead. And Kathra’ possessing him was much, much later.
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I think if we received new lore that states Sylvanas farted as a teenager, it would somehow get spun up to be an evil part of her master plan to burn Teldrassil during the WoT since teenage years making her the smartest person on Azeroth.
Just to make sure you and I are the same sheet of music, the evacuation began fore Teldrassil was set on fire actually happened. There are no if and or buts about it.
Edit: Which was a part of their original plan.
^^This was not a part of the original plan(which is the crux of the discussion). The plan changed spare of the moment. Up until that point evacuations were happening just as they planned, which if IIRC, Ren’s point.
Correct, but some reason you’re missing the part about her not wanting to burn Teldrassil right then and there as her original plan going into WoT. She decided to burn Teldrassil right then and there due to Saurfang’s mistake it wasn’t suppose to happen right then and there.
Benevolent, lol. You interpreted me saying*“Evacuations was a part of her plan so she could eventually kill more people and destroy more Alliance capitols and eventually start funneling Horde to the Maw”* as benevolent. Are you for real?
I like to give Sylvanas credit were her credit is due, evil farts in the bed as a teenager had nothing to do with a spare of the moment decision to destroy Teldrassil at that time lol.
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I’m gonna have to scroll up and read because how did Meryl get into this conversation. Lol
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Lets not make strawmen arguments.
What sylavans did was inhumane and reprehensible. The only people who excuse it are her fans. Even she or Blizzard don’t make excuses.
Yes but the evacuation was not complete. There were still plenty of people in there and when Sylvanas reached the tree she made sure to burn and block any escape or attempt at rescue.
Are we on the same page regarding that?
This is simply wrong.
During BFA prepatch this is the excuse that Sylvanas presented, even in the original plan she did not want Malfurion to die.
Sylvanas never intended to win, we know this now. She wanted to cause as many possible deaths.
Wrong. In the original plan that she presented Saurfang in the war room Malfurion was NOT supposed to die. She only made this change for some lame excuse like “killing hope”.
Everything she did was to kill as many people as possible. No one knew this but her.
The Horde thought they were fighting a war to secure their future by occupying Teldrassil and holding whoever was in there as a hostage against the Alliance to ensure peace forever… which is insane and incredibly immoral.
This was never going to happen though. Sylvanas wanted to start a war and have both sides kill each other as much as possible. The reason she burned Teldrassil was for the reason exactly. To have the entire Alliance invested in a war they cannot help themselves but to fight in.
There is no proof of this. That is just your conjecture.
What we have though is Sylvanas killing civilians and Sylvanas fans saying “Actually she wanted them to be evacuated, look how nice she is.” Which is what Ren intended.
Its spur of the moment actually, and Sylvanas always intended to kill everyone in the tree.
Because her plan is to literally kill as many as people as possible to feed the jailer.
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I know this is like comparing Gala apples to Granny Smith apples, there’s not a huge difference but she just tortured Koiltra and used psycological warfare on him she never tried to turn him into a brain dead sleeper agent like she did Derek, using domination magic. Derek is the only time other than Anduin where she used domination magic.
Torture is in Sylvanas’s wheelhouse but this is the first time she ever tried to create a manchurian candidate. But still her motives were to stop Jaina’s assult on the Zandalari so it was just chalked up to unethical warfare like Gilneas.
Arthas used Domination magic presumably since he picked up Frostmourne.
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