[Spoiler]Judgement of Sylvanas

Lore Story Forum
710

shh if you say that he will.

I feel like i can finally share my story. so when I got harrassing messages on Tumblr from someone I thought to be in connection with Grandblade (because Grandblade was talking about my kids and he was being really nasty to me) I thought it may have been him. This person was using at least two sock puppet accounts and was using the anonymous message feature on Tumblr. But was also harrassing me in reblogs on my posts that were not even Sylvanas related. making comments about how that’s where they knew me from. I got a bit scared because I used to post personal things on my Tumblr and I was afraid of getting Doxxed, Ethriel at the same time was trying to doxx all my wow characters to i thought this may have been a collaborated effort. I actually brought this harassment up to Blizzard CS but because the harassment happened off platform there was nothing they could do.

This lead me to unfriend all my fandom friends who I knew were Sylvanas fans so that this harrasser would not be able to find more people to harrass. We did have a little fandom discord and we did talk about our shared experience posting in this forum and recieving harrassment but it never lead to anything because we were never able to find out who it was, all we knew was that “if you are a Sylvanas fan and you interact with Grandblade you were likely to get harrassed.” that’s all it was, we all got bored of trying to find out who it was after we all just kind of got bored of Shadowlands and moved on to other games.

Reaching out to Grandblade got me laughed at. I was a target of his Twitter rants like the one you linked and he ignored me on here and that’s that.

I was legitimately terrified this harrasser would find me irl and would try to hurt my kids.

Posting in this forum has created so many unnecessary problems for me that I really only stay for the handful of good people I’ve met here. I tried to warn Baal about interacting with GB on Twitter, there was nothing good from getting involved with that circle of people.

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711

I don’t know what any of this is about or who any of these people are.

However, it makes me glad that the extent of my interactions with this community tends to be coming on here every now and again to spew out obscenely large posts.

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712

I’ve been here on my main on the official Story Forums for over a decade now. Posters from all sides of the fandom have wasted their time trying to insult me. There were years were some would go hundreds upon hundreds of posts trying to get a rile out of me. I just disregarded whatever wasn’t relevant to the lore being discussed. As long my references and citations were accurate people had ultimately been able to see that the hostility towards me was as unfounded as the misinterpretation of the lore that those posters were trying to maintain.

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713

Neutrality means savety^^

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714

Difference is Varian hadn’t commited unspeakable crimes against a playable faction.

Yeah ummm, no. This isn’t a winter soldier scenario where we know from the get-go, he’s been brainwashed and we want him stopped but still want him to be saved, with Sylvanas we’ve had the rug pulled from under us, told she was completely in charge of her own actions oh but wait she wasn’t!

It’s stupid and insulting to Alliance fans, it’s the crappiest form of redemption ever. Imagine if any other character in Wow got this treatment, say Arthas or Garrosh.

The reason people are sick of Sylvanas and sick of Sylvanas fans is mainly because if you compare Arthas and Sylvanas, they’ll come up with a trillion reasons why their circumstances are not the same, despite being completely the same and the hypocrisy is just infuriating.

I want Arthas completely redeemed, for Blizzard to say he’s been a good guy all this time and have ‘Deathknight Arthas’ eliminated and for Pre-frostmourne Arthas to be reintroduced into the story and for Forsaken and Blood Elf characters to accept that and forgive him.

You feel that vomit forming in your throat as you just read that last paragraph? That’s the feeling Night Elf fans have to this whole Sylvanas soul-split ordeal.

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715

Yes, but see…

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716

i know, i know, the air between you is pretty thick right now, but…clarify it personally instead of generalizing, for whole factions, and by the way, one should also be able to argue objectively beyond personal feelings.

this also applies to both sides.

717

Blizz has already clearly stated that Arthas was an evil Paladin before he ever grabbed Frostmourne… so it would be an evil Paladin replacing an evil DK.

Sylvanas is not described as being “evil” before Arthas violated her being.

So that comparison doesn’t work.

These people you mention, that are sick of Sylvanas fans - they are upset that their false comparisons don’t ever work, because the differences are glaring.

They can be upset at the canon lore, the facts, the truth, or a particular fandom. It doesn’t change anything.

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718

I’ve seen two counter arguments:

  1. Why should we trust Cdev?
  2. The most updated lore overrides previous lore.

The first counter point doesn’t seem like a point made in earnest. If so I would love to have an actual discuss how “why should we trust cdev” is a counter point that should be taken into consideration.

I’m still waiting for this “new” lore that counters cdev statement. Otherwise am I just suppose to take their word for it? Do I wait for the release of the next patch? Is there something in the datamined stuff that counters Cdev statement? Alas, I’m still waiting.

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719

That doesn’t help anything, nothing at all that Sylvanas did, it’s also not an argument what holds for it, because Arthas.

That’s not true, not since wc3. I don’t know but…I think there is no worse crime than killing an innocent child, burning it too, and the explanation" This is war", no, this is not war.

That is a crime against life, a sin against life itself. No mercy, no leniency, no redemption, this offense cannot be forgiven when it is not just one, but thousands. Killing soldiers, yes, that is a risk of war, what Sylvanas did, no.

No, that is heinous, monstrous and nothing she does can and will ever redeem her from that. She killed innocent people, thousands of innocent people, whose only “crime” was to live in a tree.

The Horde was the accomplice, it’s true, but the order was given by Sylvanas.

There is no redemption, there is no salvation from this fate, there is no hope on the horizon, from it Sylvanas can not return, she can not. And that tells you her own words and cinema and an interview, blizzard aknowledged that sylvanas CAN`t be redeemed, never ever, and that cinema admit, her legacy is broken…her time is over…she can only help to make a few things right…everything else is out of her control…she is doomed, and that is clearly showed in the cinema.

But if now someone wants to argue “Then why try?”, I say “Because not to do it would only prove even more what a monster she is, and then she no longer deserves to exist, and would be a soul deserving of final extinction…without ever getting a chance at all.”

It may take until eternity, until she has freed all the souls, until she has somehow tried something, but anything is better than simply…doing nothing, even knowing that such things can never be made right and that no judgment would be enough, no punishment would weigh heavy enough, no punishment would be more severe than she would deserve.

The Jailor pays for his deed with non-existence, Sylvanas pays for her deed with? Well…to be trapped for eternity in the plane she was trying to escape with the vague hope of possibly someday…finding her beloved.

But the Maw must be her sentence, a punishment without pardon, and it must be the sentence of Tyrande who willingly lets her surrender over herself, it must not be sylvania’s free will, but something she submits to, knowing…never to get out of there again.

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720

At this stage I personally wouldn’t mind Sylvanas being consigned to the Maw or having to undertake some sort of gruelling task.

However, I don’t think that was the point there.

The point was that people who dislike Sylvanas often erroneously state that her and Arthas are the same.

They are not, it was pretty clearly shown that they are not. Sure if you wanted to simply look at the surface you could draw similarities, but that’s hardly actually comparing the characters.

I don’t believe that Curse was attempting to absolve Sylvanas of all her “sins” at all - I think he was just highlighting that the idea that Arthas and Sylvanas are exactly the same is nonsense.

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721

Arthas is a character that contains a certain…tragedy, without it being intended by blizz, and sylvanas is a character in which the tragedy was played up in such a way that it…tipped over, contrary to her position.

One remembers arthas in the “good”, as an villian of course, but in the “good”, because circumstances therefore also lead to look back nostalgically. Many like Arthas as Villian, they evaluate him as what he is, but…the comparison "But Arthas "Is usually brought out not by those who like Arthas, but by those who like Sylvanas to somehow relativize Sylvanas deeds, and that can not work.

Sylvanas is Sylvanas, Arthas is Arthas, sylvanas deeds after wc3 are no longer Arthas judgement, a broken soul is vulnerable to manipulation…but her choises are her own. thats uthers statement…the reason why its allmost broke him is…that HE Decided it, it was not a 3rd party enforce his will on him, but his own desiccion…and this knowledge almost broked him, because he was confronted with the truethness…he is not so different, in him rests the same bad that does in arthas…to achieve his goals…he also resorts to violence all too willingly.

722

I was discussing the differences between them. The differences in their stories and their depictions, when others say they are the same. I wasn’t speaking to guilt or justice or what ever.

Arthas was evil before he grabbed Frostmourne. Replacing the post-Frostmourne Arthas with the Pre-Frostmourne Arthas still leaves you with an evil Arthas.

The same can not be said about Sylvanas before her violation by Arthas. She was highly regarded as a hero in life, and was only doing evil after Arthas violated her being with dark magic.

Sylvanas herself appears to be taking responsibility, regardless of how anyone on the forums feels about it. She seems to be offering herself for judgement of Tyrande, not flying away on an escape blimp.

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723

Arthas was subject to many influences, ultimately his story is over, at least I think so (Also what rests in Anduin…is not per se. Arthas soul, but rather the Lich King, of which Arthas is only a part, a part of Arthas soul is also in Frostmournes shards, to this day, and another part of him was even finally destroyed before he really became the Lich King, all in all…Arthas is a broken man and no reincarnation of him …is more the complete Arthas, all just fragments.

And…the reason while she offering herself to tyrande is…because she can´t do anything and a stubborn child =/= Evil. even the novel arthas show you clearly…arthas have flaws, but evil? Come on, evil isn´t anything what he does pre scourge influence.

have you read the kel’Thuzad shortstory too? The coldest winter in the year before the scourge appears in Lorderon, The Lichking and Kel’thuzad planned the whole thing, down to the smallest detail, kel’thuzad was even sent back…to feed his rage and the angrier he gets, the more he falls into their arms. to say that everything was Artha’s sole decision and not greater powers played a part here as well…would be a lie.

We even know that Ner’zhul sent out his spirit to find the right host…he found it in Arthas. He used his desire and feeling to never let anyone down again…against him, he used his insecurity and vulnerability…against him, Arthas was a young prince…who wanted to do everything for his people, and that very ambition was his downfall.

thats arthas tragedy, his best traits were turned against him…

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724

That indicates to me that you don’t actually know the story of Sylvanas. Which is understandable as pivotal parts of it were hidden away in novels and barely so much as hinted at in the games.

Honestly, I think if more of her story was actually present in the game and people didn’t have to read outside sources for it - Sylvanas as a character would likely receive less hate and these Arthas comparisons would be far less prevalent.

Yes there absolutely is tragedy to the story of Arthas, but whatever tragedy you can find in that story the tragedy in the story of Sylvanas far outstrips it.

Arthas did not die fighting tooth and nail for his people, Arthas did not have his soul torn out and forged into a banshee, Arthas did not then have to consciously witness as he was made to butcher the very people he fought tooth and nail to defend, Arthas was not abused by his captor.

And that’s the point. The same people who talk about how tragic the story of Arthas is disregard a story far more tragic.

That’s not to justify Teldrassil or any of her actions, but instead once again to highlight the difference between the two.

The same applies to Uther, Uther did not suffer nearly as much as Sylvanas and he even so much as says so in the very cinematic you’ve been referencing.

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725

I know Sylvanas story. I know what arthas did to her, I always found the symbolism of sexual rape that some saw in it as weird, and therefore saw Sylvanas as no symbol for it, but I understood what he did to her, I even played wc3 very actively back then for example and the QT missions are among my favorite.

But I still remember the original story about the Windrunner:

Sylvanas was the young but ambitious general who lost to the living death no matter what she tried, and yet held on heroically for so long…one reason so many elves survived in the first place was because of Sylvanas.

I remember her reverence for Alleria, and her deep sorrow for the loss of her brother, I remember the character of the Ranger General, but it doesn’t change what I said about Arthas.

Arthas’ deed as a death knight is that of another man, a man deprived of his soul, a man who became an instrument of death…a man whose ambition to save his country became the butcher of what he was…and whose anger he originally had for the scourge he bestowed upon all those who stood in his way. The particular cruelty of letting Sylvanas take part in the legendary duel with Anasterian, and ultimately the reason the elves lost in the first place…(Sylvanas’ scream made Anasterian retreat…that gave Arthas the chance to strike…otherwise he would have met his death there), yes…that is cruel, and those are deep scars when your own body does things you don’t want.

This is false, Arthas fought for his people, desperately, at any cost…and it is true, Arthas did not become a banshee…but he lost his soul to Frostmourne…and thus became the first Death Knight…the right hand of the Lich King and his enforcer and commander in the field.

it seems to me, i know sylvanas story even better than you…on top of arthas story aswell^^

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726

I never said that Sylvanas has no trauma, I didn’t deny that she is deeply wounded, all valid objections, but the differences between Arthas and Sylvanas - on a metaperspective - are not that big.

  • Both were chosen by a power of death.
  • Both were interwoven with it and lured in exchange for power (but the motives for seizing the power were different).
  • Both ultimately became tools and did…what they would never have actually done in life.
  • Both share the fate in the end…they ended up in the Maw.
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727

Regarding Pre-Frostmourne and Post-Frostmourne, it would be the truth. And that is the line of demarcation another poster stated, that I replied to.

It was Arthas’s decision to wield Frostmourne. He was not being dominated or mind controlled. He had 100% free will when he made the decision to wield it.

Sylvanas wanted a clean death, and Arthas ignored her choice, and violated her. She was not known as evil before that. On the other hand, the Devs have already said Arthas was evil before he grabbed Frostmourne.

The Devs have cited him as an evil Paladin pre Frostmourne. If you disagree with the canon, that is your business, I suppose.

Perhaps the Devs were thinking about the Culling of Stratholm. Or how he murdered the mercenaries he hired. Or how he “damned the men”, and was mutinous by disobeying his king’s orders. All before he ever grabbed Frostmourne.

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728

Arthas was evil before he ever picked up Frostmourne. That is the nature of his tragedy - in his arrogance and his desire for vengeance, he believed that only he could save his people by purging Stratholme and then chasing his vengeance in Northrend.

He was a flawed human being from the get go and the crisis served to bring to the surface those flaws which ultimately doomed him.

That’s a fair bit different than Sylvanas.

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729

The only statement that Arthas was evil before Frostmourne…comes from the CDEV, and was challenged in the same ADDON with Matthias Lehner…who embodid his humanity…and no one questioned that from you?

And Stratholme, come on, stratholme, Stratholme was lost, nothing could be done there and in the end Arthas was there even too late…he was too late because after they were killed they rose up anyway…because they were already infected, it was only ARTHAS hope…that they will rest then, which is not true as we see to this day in Stratholme.

Only the corpses that were burned completely…could be saved.