[SPOILER] Is Baine key to Redemption for the Horde?

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

So are horde players not allowed to pretend to be sad or angry about their own civilians dying, because they technically became combatants when defending their own homes?

Apparently Blizzard wants only the Alliance to be sad and the Horde to be evil.
we must all suffer together in this narrative.

The only people Blizz is making happy are the 12 year old edge lords.

[Laeth-hakkar]

Again civilians taking up weapons cease to be civilians. Ask the US forces fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq how they dub these supposed civilians.

You are not helping your case.

You inferred it.

I did no such thing.

I referenced shop keepers deliberately joining the fight as the cause of being killed by the Dark Irons and you proceed to ask me if NE civilians would not do the same. I am sure some might have but thats no equivalence now is it?

It is not. You’re labeling the Zandalari not civilians for fighting back, but refuse to address that the Night Elves would have done the same. Unlike you, I don’t justify killing civilians by trying to claim they’re not.

[Laeth-hakkar]

No need to get personal.

I know you were complaining about not signing up to join the evil faction but I think you are exactly where you belong.

All in all its pretty pathetic the Horde player base are excusing fighting for Sylvanas for head canoning some atrocities to equate it to teldrassil.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

You are not helping your case.

dude. If you pick up a weapon to join a war. You cease to be a civilian and become a combatant.
A pretty useless a combatant but a combatant nontheless.

I did no such thing.

Except you did. Why else would you equate BoD with WoT?

It is not. You’re labeling the Zandalari not civilians for fighting back, but refuse to address that the Night Elves would have done the same. Unlike you, I don’t justify killing civilians by trying to claim they’re not.

Any Zanadalari that died that did not try to attack alliance soldiers is a civilian casualty. Any who picked up a weapon and joined the battle stopped being a civilian.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

Not sure what the point of this post is.
Its a pretty accurate description of you.

[Laeth-hakkar]

dude. If you pick up a weapon to join a war. You cease to be a civilian and become a combatant.
A pretty useless a combatant but a combatant nontheless.

I disagree vehemently. Picking up whatever is nearby to defend your literal home and family against invaders is not “joining a war”.

Except you did. Why else would you equate BoD with WoT?

Laeth:

Because you have this thing about declaring what civilians are civilians and which are acceptable targets.

Any Zanadalari that died that did not try to attack alliance soldiers is a civilian casualty. Any who picked up a weapon and joined the battle stopped being a civilian.

Like this. Those are all civilians.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

So if a civilian with a weapon is trying to kill a soldier the soldier isn’t suppose to put them down?
They are suppose to let it happen?
Are you also of the opinion that Police arent suppose to gun down an armed civilian criminal?

[Laeth-hakkar]

i question that soldier’s training if they can’t deal with an untrained civilian.

[Laeth-hakkar]

Are you also of the opinion that Police arent suppose to gun down an armed civilian criminal?

That’s some real wonky goalpost shoving there.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

Ok… this is getting really dumb.
If you pick up a weapon you are no longer a civilian. You are a combatant.
Full stop. Period.
Whether in fiction or real life.

If someone is shooting at a soldier they will respond in kind. They dont care or even know that person’s training. All they know is someone is shooting at them.
Just because they suck at aiming doesnt mean they will not shoot at them or kill them when they get a chance to neutralize the threat.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

That’s been a frustrating thing horde-side when it comes to faction war stuff, at least from my point of view. If there’s ever anything the alliance does to harm the horde, it’s justified or somehow excusable and takes away from any reason to care about the story. But any horde-side actions are either threadbare at best, or the story goes out of the way to make it evil and unprovoked.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

That’s been a frustrating thing horde-side when it comes to faction war stuff, at least from my point of view. If there’s ever anything the alliance does to harm the horde, it’s justified or somehow excusable and takes away from any reason to care about the story. But any horde-side actions are either threadbare at best, or the story goes out of the way to make it evil and unprovoked.

Exactly hence my comment it would have been SO much better if there was a Dark Iron burning houses down full of innocent Zandalari who were not a threat to anyone.

For once the Horde player could finally point towards something the Alliance is doing that is questionable or evil.
Except Blizzard doesn’t allow the Alliance to do anything so… there you have it.
You got people like Leath foaming at the mouth for places like Taurajo (or combatant civilians in this case) because there is nothing better out there.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

Exactly hence my comment it would have been SO much better if there was a Dark Iron burning houses down full of innocent Zandalari who were not a threat to anyone.

I feel like at this point people would rationalize it as it being the horde’s fault for involving the Zandalari, or them starting it because of the War of Thorns. Or if they had added it, it’d get softened down in the PTR like the vulpera purge squads.

[Laeth-hakkar]

Ok… this is getting really dumb.
If you pick up a weapon you are no longer a civilian. You are a combatant.
Full stop. Period.
Whether in fiction or real life.

No they’re still a civilian but if you think they’re a credible threat you can defend yourself but they’re still a civilian… which if you’re invading you don’t have that excuse.

Less so in fantasy.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

I am really not debating this with you.
As soon as a civilian picks up a weapon to fight in a war they stop being a civilian.

If you have any other arguments I am all ears.

[Laeth-hakkar]

it’d get softened down in the PTR like the vulpera purge squads.

Those are in the actual game.

[Laeth-hakkar]

I am really not debating this with you.
As soon as a civilian picks up a weapon to fight in a war they stop being a civilian.

Then we have nothing to debate.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

My problem is that even in BFA the Alliance is never allowed to actually brutalize the Horde.

Its always some third party like the Vulperans or Zandalari.
Until 8.3 where the Alliance forgives the actual people responsible.

The Vulperans though? BURN THEM ALL! THEY MUST BE DESTROYED!!!
Meanwhile there are perfectly good Orcs/Trolls in Durotar or BEs in Silvermoon that need some purging.

Then we have nothing to debate.

Goodbye then.
I wont miss your false equivalencies.

[Mediarama-rivendare (Mediarama)]

Ok… this is getting really dumb.
If you pick up a weapon you are no longer a civilian. You are a combatant.
Full stop. Period.
Whether in fiction or real life.

If someone is shooting at a soldier they will respond in kind. They dont care or even know that person’s training. All they know is someone is shooting at them.
Just because they suck at aiming doesnt mean they will not shoot at them or kill them when they get a chance to neutralize the threat.

TIL that defending yourself and/or your family from a hostile force makes you a combatant. If you want to be known as a civilian, best to just sit there and die.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

TIL that defending yourself and/or your family from a hostile force makes you a combatant. If you want to be known as a civilian, best to just sit there and die.

It really depends.
If you are in your house and some people break into it then yeah. You are just defending yourself.

But if you pick up a weapon and join your local militia or army to fight an invading force then… you aint really a civilian anymore.
You got to make those distinctions.
As far as I have seen all the Zandalari trolls that flooded the streets were the latter rather than the former.