[SPOILER] Is Baine key to Redemption for the Horde?

Lore Story Forum
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Jaina has following quest dialogue in PTR.
https://i.imgur.com/BpW0C7a.png
It says:

I cannot help but pity Baine. Honor such as his has lost its value in the Horde.

At the same time, she also says

Baine showed compassion and honor by returning Derek to us. I fear that choice may cost him his life.

For years I pitied Sylvanas for what Arthas did to her. But nothing remains of the hero she was. Perhaps now the Horde will see that, too.

It clearly shows that Jaina is sympathizing with Baine and seems to hope that Horde will realize Sylvanas is going dark path (which some of them do).

Baine risks his life to rescue Derek and it seems to give Jaina glimmer of hope that Horde can be redeemed. I don’t think she’ll forget his deeds. While Baine is in a bad spot right now, could it be possible that his current development is leading to a story of redemption of the Horde? The grand finale of Horde story in BfA?

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it could be.

But is not exactly jaina the one who should be receiving good faith in the hope for peace,that is tyrande.

while true,baine’s actions may help to make jaina decide to not dismantle the horde, the only one who can truly decide that is tyrande.

besides, maybe jaina can order a rescue mission for baine to return the favor. but that doesn’t mean that the horde should be left blameless.

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A lot of people give Baine grief for his friendship with Anduin, but somehow the dude has managed to (despite all odds) maintain a reasonably positive relationship with Jaina as well (even during the period went she went full on Horde Murder Hobo).

His reasons for his two BIG ACTS that “benefited” the Alliance aren’t even that bad. The first time he was trying to give Jaina a chance to evacuate her civilians from Theramore (had Garrosh not stalled out to use the bomb, the Horde would have likely walked over that city with minimal casualties). The second time the Alliance barely factored in (outside of maybe serving as an olive branch for diplomacy). He was just pissed that Sylvanas seemed so unhinged that even the values of her own people no longer mattered (suggesting how little she cared about the cultures and values of the other races).

TBH however … I have no idea how the Baine narrative will progress. I really doubt he’s going to die, but considering I’m more or less certain the Derek thing is going to backfire on him hard … I’m unsure of his fate going forward. He walked into doing exactly what Syvlie wanted him to, costing Zelling his life, and its likely not going stop there for the consequences of his actions.

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Baine is the key to the Horde’s downfall into irrelevance and human worship.

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It is ironic to think that the plot is too repetitive when we have the second warchief who expects Baine to betray the Horde to help the Alliance (a g a i n). I do not think it’s repetitive for Baine to help the alliance, after all is all he knows how to do, I did not see him mention his people once this whole expansion, but help Jaina and the Alliance always come to his mind.

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Hey, at least he’s never thought about having his people leave the Horde and join the Alliance, that’s more of a Blood Elf move. If not for Jaina’s little temper-tantrum in Dalaran, the BEs could already be wearing Blue. :smiley:

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The Horde cannot be redeemed.
It is impossible.

They are the evil playable faction and going forward we should recognize that fact.

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Didn’t know bout this dialogue I don’t think maybe I did but it adds excellently to my point that Baine is Epic and his arrest is a major F up by Sylvanas, I think. Or not maybe she inadvertently saved the Horde by doing so since Anduin dude is gonna be like “Baine, I love you, of course the Horde can come over for dinner and we can forget this whole nasty war business” after Sylvy is killed off.

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You know what? I don’t even care. Even if Baine does “redeem” the Horde, it’s not going to make me feel any better about this whole, long, exhausting, demoralizing spiral into faction war.

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Yep. Baine and Calia will team up to lead the Horde into a glorious new age of peace and justice and being slaves to the Alliance.

Seriously though - having the other faction hand-pick a leader is mark against, not a mark for.

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The gruesome part with Baine is related to the motivations… Did Lor’themar contemplate a faction switch? Sure. Why did he do that? Cause he wanted to protect the Belves and their interests. Did he expect to fulfill a submissive political position? Not at all, reason why Jaina’s temper tantrum angered him so much (that made the second time Belves were unfairly mistreated by Dalaran, a kingdom with heavy ties to the Alliance).

Baine fulfills the opposite. He is a character that -unfortunately- has been portrayed as mostly interested in sacrificing anything (even his own people’s wellbeing) for an ideal of peace. In that sense he comes to the negotiation table with a submissive position already assimilated.

With Lor’themar you could expect a Horde that WILL resist some demands and that would demand in exchange some guarantees… With Baine you can indeed expect a Horde that WILL cave in to any demand made by the Alliance nations, a Horde absolutely at the mercy of Tyrande et al.

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I don’t recall Baine doing anything that sacrificed the wellbeing of his own people for peace; outside of maybe insisting they stay in the Horde, despite the immense hardships they were facing due to their association with Garrosh (heck, Taraujo probably wouldn’t have happened had he done so; it was just as much a casualty of Garrosh’s war as any Alliance was).

Baine’s response to Taraujo when looked at through an objective lens, was fairly measured. He built the “Great Gate of Mulgore” to reinforce his people’s borders, and felt satisfied that justice was served with the destruction of Northwatch, as well as the deaths of Hawthorn and all his men. Anything beyond that would be excessive, hence him kicking those calling for that out of TB (not out of Mulgore).

Baine’s decision to warn Jaina was predicated on the belief that Garrosh would continue to push towards Theramore immediately, rather than stall out at Northwatch. Had Garrosh done this, the Horde would have steamrolled that city; so Baine’s decision to warn Jaina was intended to simply push her into evacuating the civilian population (albeit Garrosh used Baine’s attempt to do so against him).

The Derek plan was stupid as Sylvie presented it, it would never have worked (which is likely why Baine releasing Derek WAS the plan). Being that as it is, if she wanted Baine to release Derek (he helped), if she didn’t (then he turned a worthless plan into a potential olive branch). Hell, the Alliance wasn’t even really the issue here, it was the fact that Sylvanas cared so little about her own people’s values.

Its not that Baine sacrifices ANYTHING for peace, its just the dude is a Tauren … and they don’t have any real personal stakes in this faction conflict outside of their affiliation with the Horde. Not seeing a reason for conflict with the Alliance, is not the same as bending over and doing anything for peace.

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Putting Baine at charge of the Horde at this moments will be the biggest mistake the writers could do, the dude is more alliance than horde and even goes to kill horde soldiers to liberate Derek, true the forsakens are jerks but killing even the ones that are begging mercy tells me a lot where his true loyalties are.

The alliance has this problem already with Anduin blaming everything to Sylvanas and wants to just give a group hug to all the horde despite of Teldrassil and any hope of revenge for the nelves fans is zero with this guy around.

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I question the extent of this to be honest. Lor’themar’s primary concern has always been Quel’Thalas and the Blood Elves first and foremost. If it means securing Quel’Thalas, guaranteeing the Void Elves are never allowed anywhere near the borders, and that Suramar is also left alone (as Quel’Thalas’ closest ally within the Horde), I could see him agreeing to some things that might leave other Horde races out in the cold. What’s Ashenvale or Darkshore to him? What’s Lordaeron other than a buffer between Quel’Thalas and the Alliance?

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Okay, so By your own admission killing forsaken is killing members of the horde.

Good.

If memory serves Sylvanas killed a good number of those in BtS (and BfL if you wann get into it). Probably more, since baine and zelling actually spared a few :thinking:

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Indeed, but still this means he would demand basic guarantees for his kingdom and his people at the very least (no Velves allowed comes to mind for example). Still much more than what Baine has been portrayed to do (people can preach all they want about a cease fire, fact is at the end he never demanded anything -not even an official apology ffs- for the Tauren civilians murdered in Southern Barrens. And those were killed BEFORE the cease fire. Those are victims nobody cared about sacrificed in the name of “peace”. And as someone who lives in a country with a 50+ years of internal armed conflict, I can tell you no peace is worth such price as the blood of the innocents.).

We have Baine telling their people to endure murder cause peace is what matters and we have Lor’themar violently throwing a bench cause his people got attacked and unfairly jailed. Tell me will be more submissive again.

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The blood elves were complicit in making Garrosh’s bomb and using Jainas new city of Dalaran as a way to steal the Bell.

Why wouldnt she be pissed off?

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Oh absolutely Baine. Lor’themar will have demands, but whether they’re in the interests of the Horde or the Blood Elves is another matter entirely. That was my point. I do feel like Baine would request the barest necessities for the Horde’s races to continue.

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Baine’s actions are a good start and it’s refreshing to see that even Jaina recognizes that the Horde’s not completely irredeemable.

Next steps obviously including throwing Sylvanas down a deep dark hole and hoping some void critter has her for lunch. Then, hopefully, after that we can finally due away with the position of Warchief as the all encompassing ruler of the Horde.

The Horde likes to talk about being a free faction, but it can never be truly “free” free until it does away with a system where one person can say “Let’s go to war” and the rest are honorbound to follow.

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Cause Dalaran wasn’t Jaina’s new city (at least under a coherent narrative). Dalaran is governed by a MAGE COUNCIL. The choices are to be reviewed and approved BY THE MAGE COUNCIL BEFOREHAND. The whole purge fiasco was ILLEGAL by both declaration and execution (not only Jaina unlawfully took the choice by herself but to add insult to injury she appointed a paramilitary group to take charge of the event. IRL, that “little” couple of details would have costed her the job AND maybe even some jail time herself.

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