you want to stop this in leveling dungeons? maybe argue to make them harder so people actually have to respect them. People rush and don’t respect them because they don’t have to, and you get the same reward if you do it in 40 min as if you do it in 12.
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My issue is that hasn’t been my experience with Dragonflight. I had multiple different tanks very early in the expansion launch who were coming into M0 pulling all trash onto the boss and not even come close to dying. These were tanks whose average item level was well below the gear that was dropping from an M0 at the time. The most egregious example I remember was a DH who was 50 item levels below what dropped in M0 in the second week of the expansion in a M0 Neltharus.
I fully agree that a tank that’s overgeared shouldn’t have an issue doing this, but when a tank that’s so far below par being able to do it, that’s a problem. The shift Blizzard made to change the damage profile from one of hefty tank damage to the group as a way to improve healing engagement ultimately led to indestructible tanks. So long as the group feels the pain for a tank’s brazenness, we’re going to keep seeing this kind of thing.
M0 is weird, since it feels like they get the M0 tuning by trying to tune +20s, then dividing the HP/Damage by 4.8.
Yeah I have no idea where the M0 scaling came from with Dragonflight. Like I do understand Blizzard wanted to move the danger from tank damage to group damage for healing, but it feels like they swung the pendulum too far for lower level endgame content. Yet by the time you get to a +20, the damage distribution feels nearly perfect in terms of gameplay experience; tanks are powerful without being unkillable and the healer’s main responsibility is on the rest of the group.
there is absolutly no way to tune a 5 man anything to raid dificulty without making it completely boring and lacking any mechanics becuase of the composition of teh groups.
for example -you would have only 1 healer who may not have teh right abilities for an encounter . You only have 3 DPS so you will be missing way too many abilities , and teh big one , just one tank -so absolutely no tank swapping mechanics or anything that could remotely kill teh tank . A 5 man raid would have to be able to be completed by ANY combination of classes - it would have to be as brain dead and lacking mechanics as dungeons are now. tune Dawn to mythic raid dificulty and a 20 man team would clear it in under an hour because what makes it hard for a 5 man team now is teh lack of abilities present in the team to counter the limited abilities of teh bosses
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I’ve given up on M+ after Legion.
I wanted keys to make the dungeon scale in difficulty, not time.
If M+ just did that without a timer I’d play retail again. I want each pull to be dangerous. CC being recommended.
I want to be able to go pee for 2 minutes quick and not cost the entire group their key.
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My rogue was 60 @ 305 ilvl or so. Hit 70 and did full sweep of m0s still at 305 at launch like it was no problem
Very good point. It’s a little funny when think about it too.
The only reason people speed run though is .,well nothings really new it’s a game that’s almost 20 years old. People have ran the same dungeons dozens even hundreds of times.
The very first time you see something new in a game that’s probably the most time you’ll take with it… not just checking it out but if it’s a dungeon- learning the traps and or the boss mechanics.
After that’s figure out .,explorer mode is turned off in your brain chore mode is forever turn on…just get it done.
100% agree with the original post. Timewalking dungeons in general has always been an enjoyable way to experience the game for me. It must be popular because we now have turbulent time ways. I would love to see additional timewalking dungeons added to the mix.
If it’s not tanks that are sprinting ahead killing off teammates as they try to keep up and are also getting locked out of dungeons, it’s some other class pulling for the tank trying to bully and push the tank to go faster. It’s the worst experience WOW has to offer for me when this playstyle enters the fold. When I’m tanking I try to keep people together but also keep moving at a consistent pace so everyone gets to play. I don’t know why people think that the job of the tank is to finish the dungeon as fast as possible.
Why do some people believe that? I understand when there is a timer on the dungeon but even then I’ve seen tanks just continue to run ahead, splitting the DPS, splitting the mobs, and overall making it a cluster and a slower overall ending time.
Blizzard, please address this speedrun behavior. It’s toxic, unenjoyable, and the opposite of how groups in MMORPG dungeons were designed to play.
If the design is to speedrun then please make a statement announcing that we want our dungeons to be a fast-paced, button smash with no risk or danger with the idea that the tank is unkillable and it’s everyone else’s responsibility to just follow along and maybe press a button or two besides just looting, if you even have time to do that.
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There is no problem with going fast, if the group as a whole is going fast and can handle it. Where there’s a problem is when tanks use movement speed boosts to rush ahead, not let the healer catch up, pull half the dungeon, and die because they can’t handle it. When they keep running out of range of heals and LOS’ing heals, they have no right to complain when they die.
I absolutely agree. Difficulty not time. M+ time has become a toxic part of the game. It’s not fun. People don’t even say hello, they don’t work together it’s all just about going fast fast fast regardless if you die or not there are no rez’s. You run back, players get locked out of boss fights, nobody seems to care and overall the entire dungeon experience has become self-serving with little to no enjoyment and not even close to the level of enjoyment teamwork brings when working together to handle a difficult situation, pull or boss.
Blizzard if you want dungeons to play this way then please announce you are designing the game (dungeons) to function as a self-serving, no-risk, button smash, with very little to no teamwork for the majority of the player base and we are mostly designing our dungeons for 1% of the people who actually try to do 20’s and could care less about anyone else in any other dungeon through group finder.
If this is the case, please tell me and I will stop advocating for something the game isn’t designed for.
Honestly I don’t think this is a problem at all. If the tank can’t survive the pulls they’re making eventually it will result in a change. This is how players learn the limits of the game and their own abilities. In this case the tank suffers the consequences of their actions.
The real problem is when the tank can survive those pulls while everyone else either can’t survive or gets locked out of boss fights while the tank is soloing it. The tank doesn’t learn not to do this because they were perfectly fine and can keep going immediately after the boss. In this case the group suffers the consequences of the tank’s actions.
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Mythic+ scaling is based off a +2 not a +0.
A +2 is scaled easier than a +0 and sets the baseline.
It’s most notable on the mega dungeons, but even dungeons like brackenhide and neltherus I was dreading a little based on their +0 scaling, but they are noticeably easier.
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To be fair M0 probably isnt a good metric as they are basically the old heroic imo. Point being really was as you scale up it becomes harder to get away with being undergeared, or at geared with an predominantly undergeared group. With tanks and dps blaming the group and healers for their failings(dps standing in stuff/extra pulling/not using personal survival/no interupts)
It’s common in a lot of MMORPG dungeons.
It’s just a different play style. Some like it, some hate it. It’s really a simple solution, if you want to the group to be forced into your playstyle, put together a group.
No matter which approach Bliz takes, there is a lot of complaining, quitting and gnashing of teeth. It’s too easy, it’s too hard, takes too long, went too fast, why do I have to heal, why do I have to dps, etc.
Going quickly isn’t insta-death for dps. But you do need to know when to dps and when to run to match the playstyle. Or don’t.
Why? We control this. I don’t see this as a Bliz issue. If you or I don’t want to use the dungeon the way others are, just don’t. Find another group. Make a group.
As you intend, you mean. Unless undergeared, they weren’t pulled this way then, either. But, your experience will vary.
It’s very easy to get higher level gear, through various means of playstyles. That’s going to put very well-geared people into situations they didn’t grow into (such as a very well geared open world tank just hopping into M or TW without much dungeon experience). The dynamic has changed a lot. The solution still stands with you have the control to make your own groups to play your own way.
While I agree that the “go fast” mentality is on the players, Blizzard is not blameless. Players have always run dungeons as quickly as their skill and power level would allow. In expansions where player power is high groups have pulled faster and in expansions where it was low groups pulled slower.
What’s different about Dragonflight compared to nearly every other expansion is that even undergeared tanks are essentially indestructible in lower difficulty endgame instances. I had a DH in week 2 of Dragonflight pull every trash mob onto each boss with an average item level 50 below what the dungeon dropped at that difficulty. At no point was he in danger of dying; had the rest of us AFKed at the entrance he would have solo’ed it.
This creates an environment where any tank that doesn’t care about his teammates or doesn’t trust them to enable a blistering pace can totally ignore their presence, and many will. Even in expansions of higher tank power levels of the past, it was rare that a tank could survive a pull with 40 trash mobs and a boss without a healer or any DPS to help kill stuff before his defensives waned. If the tank bit off more than his team could chew, his death was likely short to follow. The tank felt the consequences of his actions; in Dragonflight it’s only the party that feels those consequences.
I’m all about fast and efficient pulls. That might even include pulling trash into the boss. But training straight from one boss to another is almost always not efficient, especially if members of the team aren’t able to participate on the pull either due to dying on the run or getting locked out of a boss room that prevents players from entering post-pull. In extreme cases especially in the dungeons with high random or AOE damage, this can result in only the tank being able to engage with the content.
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So you want the keys easier in every way possible.
Because they do literally scale in difficulty, not time.
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It is hard to say what they wants. It very much sounds like they haven’t done many keys considering the majority of m+ pulls are dangerous and do require coordinated cc and interrupts as well as offensive/ defensive cds.
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which is M0 x 1.08 x tyran/fort modifier for non megadungeons…
It’s not fun, in fact, it’s unenjoyable and leans more towards frustrating, aggravating, and irritating at this point. Even when I’m the tank and make common sense proximity pulls and work to keep the group together (within 30-40 yards of each other) one of the 4 other players will run ahead and pull more (and stuff that isn’t needed) essentially bullying me and pushing the group to appear to go faster. This happens in every level of dungeon I’ve played in from single-digit mythics down to normal dungeons.
These dungeons aren’t even dungeons anymore unless you are in double-digit mythics. This also applies to the raid finder. Tanks over-pulling areas, killing off players, splitting the DPS, splitting the heals, and trying to huddle all the mobs together effectively making it impossible to target for the kicks. It’s completely backwards and defeats the purpose of them “trying to go fast”. It’s maddening.
Blizzard, you have to be aware of this. I’ve watched developers’ videos talking about how they have characters they play as well. Is this type of playstyle intended? The group finder and raid finder is awesome and the dungeons and raids are so much fun, I still do them because for some reason I relate fun to 2 or 3 out of the 5 dungeons’ weekly mythic, heroic, and time walking quests as fun. Because the rest of the time I am irritated, frustrated, and question why I even play to begin with.
If go fast, no risk, no teamwork, and unkillable toxic tank pulling and sprinting
ahead is the direction that Blizzard has designed, then please announce it and I will stop posting and advocating for the dungeon experience they were originally designed with and do something else.
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