Just want to piggy back and say I fully agree. I’ve tried getting into pve dungeons, heroics, and raids but there is no moderate pacing and it’s driven me away. As a healer it’s frustrating as hell because I’d love to pve and heal but tanks and dps gripe if you don’t pull the dungeon in a few pulls.
People dont want to slowly go through trivial content they’ve seen 500 times.
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You can continue with ignorance of refusing to admit that mega dungeons are useless released half way through patches like dawn was. It would be a completely new system that doesn’t have useless gear but go off I guess.
Don’t worry, the raiders union will gladly send you a trophy for your defense of the dying gamemode.
I will refuse to admit it, because mythic Dawn still has some BiS items for some classes. It’s not useless, most people just don’t care, and those who do are the ones who already do the dungeon and raid content in this game.
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That’s fine.
You don’t have to say it out loud. We all know smaller sized raids would be way more popular but this doesn’t fit with the raiding narrative.
“A couple specs need a trinket” isn’t really the arguement you think it is when gearing ended week 3-4 of this patch and everyone that cared was in 447s by the time the mega dungeon came out.
That’s why your data is useless.
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What I’m trying, clearly not well, to communicate to you though, is that there isn’t some hidden group of players in WoW who are waiting for smaller raid sizes to come back to the game so they can jump into the content finally. There are players who claim to be a part of that group, but as anyone who’s been around the bend more than a few times can tell you, they are a loud minority who would likely flame out of doing the content within the first few resets.
The kinds of players you’re speaking and advocating for do not exist on a level that matters.
The only people that would play that smaller group sized content are people who already participate in WoW endgame content.
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Have you never done a key? The whole point is to speed run. There is a difference between stupid pulling and speed running
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That’s kinda my point but this ^ statement would also include m+ players who don’t raid.
Last time someone linked the percentages normal+lfr raid was like 60% or something (exact numbers don’t really matter).
Your arguement is that people are already raiding so why change anything.
My arguement is that if you want to raid at all the only option is the sub par experience right now so why not make it better. 10m was way more popular than 25 man and all evidence we have from the gaming world is that small group size multiplayer games are insanely popular.
Wow raiding is outdated. Cap all raids at 5 or 10. Watch raiding explode with people.
But anyways, this won’t convince you even though it’s pretty apparent what gamers want in 2023.
But what about WoW raiding makes it sub-par? You can go into raid content with a minimum of 10 people and clear it at the second-highest difficulty. You don’t need anything but 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 DPS to fully see all the raid content outside of Mythic, a difficulty in which few people participate anyway.
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Outside of vanilla WoW leveling dungeons early on, this has always been the name of the game.
Selling and gifting power levels in Vanilla, heroic farm groups and/or for badges in TBC, basically anything outside of week 2-3 for WotLK.
As far as I can recall, the only expac where you couldn’t just speed through dungeons until some time later was Cata, and largely because the dungeons were were overturned and/or had mechanics hard checks.
Slow groups have also been around, but they’ve been but a sliver of dungeon runs overall outside of content being brand new. Why? Because if that content is ever worth doing, then you’re return on activity is contingent on your clear rate. And if not? Then it’s often just dead content!
In fact, you could solo most end game dungeons on heroic if you want to see those slower…so why don’t people do that? Because they want the reward from content, and as long as content has a reward and is repeatable, then time and consistency are the two biggest factors for good rate.
But we also know that the only real ways to combat this are to creature dungeons that are slogs on purpose, which the community at large hates. Or we bump the mechanical execution/prowess/difficulty, which does NOT impact the bulk of the “go fast” crowd in the first place at any meaningful level. Instead, it serves to isolate less experienced players.
There really isn’t a great way to combat this because of how the community at large responds to the necessary changes, either.
You need to slow a dungeon down BUT not make it a slog for sake of, which means you NEED execution and outcome to achieve that.
If execution is mechanical, then outcome must be punishing enough to matter; people actively hate this every time it ever happens and the player pool diminishes if not rewarding enough, or it becomes PUG bad times if it is.
We could introduce objective play, but an objective with a fixed time outcome is utterly boring and frustrating because it’s either too challenging and will just decimate time spent, or it’s so easy you just want it to be over; if you’ve ever ran a Violet dungeon, you know what this feels like firsthand!
And if it becomes dynamic, then it can be more engaging BUT we run into the above scenarios again; if it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing fast and faster. And if it isn’t worth doing fast, it needs to be REALLY worth doing and in order to be REALLY worth doing, the skill level has to be higher than what the majority of the player base posseses or everyone blows through content annnddddd it’s drought season.
And for leveling dungeons, it’s the experienced players that keep queues alive and constant. If that ever dries up, you’ll get your slow and steady…of anyone cares to queue for hours just for most groups to disband and sit around waiting out of frustration.
How do we know this? Because this isn’t just a WoE problem, but a well known MMO problem in general!
When WoW could afford to be slow, it was in an era where the alternatives were much slower and there weren’t many alternatives.
But in an era where gaming has something near constantly, speed becomes the name of the game when there is a rate of reward dangling.
But again, there isn’t anything stopping people from wanting to do content for the sake of doing content, but the onus is on THEM to create subset groups that go against the norm…so why don’t we see those communities spring up very often?
Because so very few people actually want that. What they actually want is the reward without the effort nor risk, nor commitment.
And to that, such players are players where “MMOs just aren’t for them”.
You’re in a minority group of gamers where you have literal Discord communities at your fingertips in seconds to start gathering like minds for stuff like this, but so few people bother.
Again, because that isn’t what they actually want.
I mean, there is literally, literally nothing stopping you from playing like this except…
…the fact the community at large simply doesn’t want to, and you’re not willing to grow the community subset that does.
Not the only people, but as such an exception group I’d still agree with you overall.
Our guild is filled with players who consistently do attach to mythic prog groups early on and tend to stand out above their normal roster.
For us, the logistics boss is the only reason we don’t step into mythic with any commitment, as most people who want to be in mythic want to be in, get a slot, and often lack a sense of community.
We value the community over the content, and if mythic raiding even just offered a 10/15/20 style flex, we’d be in that in a heartbeat.
That said, it’s because our guild IS such an exception that I agree with you; the level at which we play at, such that this even matters, means we are playing with a mindset where we already know and understand that speed clearing content is just a consequence of having content that has any rewards.
We would find it absurd to even think of purposefully slowing down a raid, ever.
Slowing down a key for a new healer or tank? Not. At. All.
As a healer main, I’m telling EVERY new tank to make mistakes and to stop being afraid to try things in our guild groups, so long as they communicate it back. I let them know that I will pull for them if they aren’t spicy enough, and I’m not being an elitist, but pushing my fellow guildies to shake the mindset that holds them back so that they can rise up and improve.
And every single person I do this for, regardless of where they start, has seen early season 20+ pushes as they gain confidence.
We would LOVE that flex for Mythic raiding, but if it never comes back, no biggie; mythic raiding is just content that doesn’t fit us, logistically, for now
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I’ll just leave it at this. You refuse to accept what is actually happening in gaming in 2023.
500kish parses in raid (all difficulties)
24 million keys ran
Both of these include overlaps of the same people
It can’t get anymore obvious that people want small group sized content. Have a good one.
Flagged for trolling.
Lol what?
Paladins are the most broken class of Wrath.
Best tank
Best healer
And solid dps
I have a feeling number of world quests done would dwarf them both.
Maybe that is the real end game and should be the focus of the devs?
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Look, if I can’t go to work for a full day in between pulls, the game is just being disrespectful of my time.
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No. Bad take.
I agree people just trying to out do each other there is no need to rush to many mistakes can be made and thats when the blames come out who done this who done that
Outside maybe voti, there isn’t a dungeon I haven’t run literally hundreds of times at this point… not to belittle someone else’s memory making, but at this point dungeons are just a means to an end. Everything is just leading to the io push…
Zoom through leveling dungeons to get to 70. Zoom through the baby keys too get geared. Zoom through the higher keys to time them and push that sweet io leaderboard!
OP, Speedrunning dungeons have been around since the dawn of time and what by means when I say this, this has been around since this game has been released.
Speed running has been around before the precursor to M+, Challenge modes in MoP became a thing. Its not the fault of M+ here.
When I have done the dungeon for so many times and I vastly over gear it then I’m going to speedrun it regardless though with the consideration of other players. Its not because I don’t enjoy the game, its the amount of times I have done the same place I have already know the ins and outs of it and I outgear it, like my monk is 444 ilvl and a heroic dungeon is trival to me.