Someone please give me a good reason

Then I go with no changes. My argument being that not all specs have to be balanced or optimized for high end raiding. People competitive about raiding will know what classes, specs and gear they need to optimize their raid clearing potential. They will avoid hybrid specs that are sub optimal and that’s fine. Meanwhile other people will play the spec that they enjoy and do whatever they want in game. And that’s totally fine.
I’m sure there will be ‘hardcore raiders’ who wish they could play one of the sub-optimal specs, and there will be sub-optimally speced players who wish they could be in a hardcore raiding guild. But that’s kind of having your cake and eating it too. FWIW, I think this is the mentality that lead wow to the game it is today. Not just casual friendliness, but also trying to appease the raider who was mad he had to play a warrior to main tank for raids or the raider mad he had to be a mage to do effective magic dps. Or for that matter the mages mad that suddenly in BC destro warlocks were out dpsing them. Now everyone can do everything so no one can complain.
I can only speak for myself, but I was and am totally fine with a warcraft where you can’t do everything.

As for the other part: If this game was designed around raiding exclusively, then they did a bad job. And if hypothetically (although again, I’m in favor of not trying to fix it) we were to try and figure out a way to fix it, I don’t think the same methodology that created the broken system would yield good results.

1 Like

Frankly, for me, I echo most of the other concerns present in this thread. Changes need to be considered very carefully. Like when they added BG queues.

For BGs, all I could think about was the quality of life improvement. I didn’t realize the significant negative impact this would have on other aspects of the game, namely the world experience, since I was a major fan of all the world PvP. People queueing for AV would terrorize SS/TM because, why not? You’re queued for battlegrounds anyway.

Say you’re headed to SM - certainly a nice long trek for Alliance all things considered. A few people are getting killed/camped, more of the group needs to make their way. Fighting at the summoning stones against rival faction groups headed there as well. Just that small bit of random chaos that made getting to the dungeon an event in and of itself, which I may have dismissed as annoyances at the time, but over time learned that what seemed like a simple “Quality of Life” improvement, proved fatal to the very social dynamics that had made the game very fun, and very frustrating.

As well with that… The game hasn’t even released yet, and we’re already expected to talk about quality of life changes? Even the OP has mentioned “2-3 years down the road maybe we change…” I get it, I really do, but you can’t honestly expect people not to be hostile about your insistence that we discuss potential changes 2+ years into the product’s life cycle, 8+ months before said product has even hit shelves.

Let people experience the game as it was, the “authentic vanilla experience,” let them enjoy (Or not enjoy) the way the game launched, albeit less buggy. Proposed changes for quality of life improvements for a game that is meant to be an exact replica of a previous version of said game doesn’t make sense. The original had very little in the way of “Quality of life,” and if Blizzard bending to the will of hardcore vanilla fans and releasing WoW Classic is any indication, that means people want the rough edges. I for one both hated, but have grown to appreciate that classes had harshly defined weaknesses and strengths, and that you had to take calculated risks. Do I want to use cheap shot on an Orc? Can I fear an undead? Does that human have perception up?

Were classes balanced? No, at least not well, but that is a feature. In a game where there are no class imbalances, there is likely more homogenization. Rogues dodge a lot, but warriors have overpower + plate armour? Unfair! We need more counters! Frost mages can freeze and then warriors can’t close the gap, we need more charges and ones we can use in combat! And we need to be able to get out of fear/immobilize effects because warlocks/mages abuse that! DoTs are OP and need to be nerfed! Hunters have too many snares and kites + pet damage interrupts casters! Why does polymorph last so long? It takes too long to fly places, why can’t we just link the flight paths? Flight paths take too long why can’t we just have portals to places we need to go? Portals take too long to get to why can’t we just queue for the dungeons instead?

Little by little, the improvements never stop, and the game no longer recognizes itself in a mirror. And eventually you log in, queue for a few dungeons while never leaving town, run a few dungeons with people you don’t talk to and will never see again, get some loot, and log off. And then we wonder where the community has gone.

Blizzard doesn’t trust Blizzard’s judgement on changes. Ion basically said that.

3 Likes

No, summoning stones til TBC, so no need to stand outside the instance of SM. Just zone into GY for safety.

You’re right I’m sure, it’s been a long time, and realistically that just makes the whole trip even harder. I’m honestly looking forward to the Classic release more each day.

1 Like

I didn’t realize they were TBC until I played on a private server.

Wouldn’t be classic specially if paladins were given the talent that gave them mana from being healed.
Besides the people who usually tweak stuff to make something more viable usually remove something that made it viable in the first place.
Everything is viable and should be left, unless this was a reboot that went somewhere else.

Regardless this is suppose to be a recreation and they already showed that they would taint an authentic experience so people probably just want people to not give them any more ideas.

wrong they are just one of many subsets that did the same thing, so they are not solely responsible.

well good thing nothing actually has been ruined.

1 Like

Vanilla was balanced around CLASSES, not how Johnny or Billy wanted to play a given CLASS.

EVERY CLASS brought something to EVERY aspect of the game. EVERY CLASS had a strength in any given aspect of the game. If Johnny or Billy WILLFULLY CHOSE not to play to their CLASS’s strengths in a given aspect of the game, that is a JOHNNY OR BILLY PROBLEM, not a game problem.

As for talent reallocation cost, no one was required to min/max for a given aspect of the game. There were plenty of ways to allocate talent points such that a player could function in multiple aspects of the game without having to reallocate their talent points. If Johnny or Billy WILLFULLY CHOSE to min/max for every aspect of the game, that is a JPHNNY OR BILLY PROBLEM, not a game problem.

The same goes for gear. No one was prohibited from carrying multiple sets of gear.

It is up to the PLAYERS to ADAPT to the game, not the other way around.

1 Like

Classic will be great and I will enjoy it, but if they don’t use this opportunity to change talents and the overall meta they are wasting a huge opportunity

That is your opinion.

My opinion is that is they catered to your desire for “changes to talents and overall meta”, it would no longer be classic.

Time walkings always suck at the beginning of an expansion. Your gear gets scaled to low ilvl but by the end its like your wearing the best gear for that expansion.

It’s called classic so it will be classic. What you mean is it won’t be vanilla.

Which is true because it will be 2019

Then why are warriors the best physical dps in the game AND the best tank in the game? If they where only balanced around classes, you should be in favor breaking both of a warriors legs to where their dps builds where as gimp as the rest of the multi role classes, but you aren’t, because you’re a hypocrite. Meanwhile Hunters basically pay the warrior’s hybrid tax for them, and as a result they suck, despite being a “pure”… but go on and tell me more about how balanced it was for classes.

But only some classes get multiple specs… Why would a player willingly play what essentially ends up being 1/3rd of a real class?

No hybrid is gearing multiple gear sets from the content during progression…

“given aspect of the game” in this case being the only major aspect of the game that was even attempted to be balanced towards, barring occasional tweaks for the sake of pvp…

When you’re weak at raid level pve, it trickles down and cripples you at the rest of the game. You can’t gear as well as better specs, which makes you weaker in pvp, farming, and the majority of all other content save maybe fishing.

They overwhelmingly do adapt to the game on Pservers, with the benefit of hindsight, and as a result there are telling… Warriors alone have almost as much representation as Priest, Druid, and Shaman/Paladin (which are considered one class when looked at both factions simultaneously), and Mage/Rogue/Warrior is double the population of hybrids… Hunters, are considered to be pretty terrible in pve as well, and not surprisingly, their representation is down ~30% from what it was in vanilla… Meanwhile, Warlocks are always one of the lesser played classes, but get roughly DOUBLE the population on pservers than they had in vanilla… It’s almost like gasp people go out of their way to play classes more than expected because they perceive those classes as stronger, and go out of their way to avoid classes that are considered gimp.

“It’s easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favor.”

2 Likes

There certainly seems to be no lack of people in these forums that want Blizzard to change classic and adapt classic to suit them and what they want it to be.

Apoc i like you. Youre arguments are well thought out and retain the spirit of vanilla in that some vlasses are intended to support others. But you know as well as I do that if we did stuff like you mention with ret (5% extra damage raid wide in talents), all that eould happen is people like ziryus and akaidian would clammer for more.

Ziryus himself already said in one post "well if we change this, we should look at balancing classes more like livd.

1 Like

Funny all the largest changes to classic I’ve seen proposed and supported have been by casual players, trying to fight for:

-Faceroll threat and gear mechanics that completely trivialize the first couple of raid tiers, with no adjustment to keep raids at intended difficulty levels

-trying to change the game by keeping servers up indefinitely, rather than on roughly 2 year cycles… another massive casual player handout.

-People defending loot trading

-People defending no spell batching

-People defending modern water graphics

-People defending sharding

-People defending cross realm tech for BGs

-People defending the modern version of AV, rather than the more authentic earlier iterations of it from vanilla

-Casuals wanting tier 0.5 out earlier

All of those things actually impact the game play heavily, and on a greater level than a hybrid potentially being considered for a raid spot (and in the vast majority of the opposition’s cases, raiding and raid balance issues wouldn’t even impact them at all as they proudly run around telling everyone how casual they are, like how vegans see fit to tell you every single time they eat food about how vegan they are.

But you go on thinking that vanilla wow some kind of pathetic casual handout era like the modern wow client is. As for whether I want things changed or not, I’ve been rather consistent on this topic for over 14 years now… I’m not the one trying to double down on already failed design decisions… These things should have been done in actual vanilla, and likely would have been done had the devs not abandoned the project in anticipation of TBC… We don’t need another repeat of Tseric getting bus shocked because people chose wrong on the character select screen, or worse, a drastic change to the world because those of us who do know better, don’t bother playing a failed class, leading to massive character population imbalances, like on pservers.

And that matters, why exactly? Your side of the coin has some powerfully stupid ideas at times as well. All that needs to happen is getting weaker specs up to par enough that they become legitimate considerations, and to do so in a way that doesn’t break pvp.

4 Likes

/sarcasm on

Sure. You’re not at all asking Blizzard to change the game to suit you and what you want it to be, right?

/sarcasm off

Our legitimately stupid ideas at least fall within the window of classic.

Either blizzard has the man/woman hrs to make good changes or they don’t. Whether they bring back super old stuff or bring in a BC one…their merit should be on if they are good changes that they have the time to do…older doesn’t make them automatically better.