funny because i find pro changers don’t like facts either.
key word is significant level. and you have to realize that the hardcore min max aren’t just going to take whatever, despite the fact that every raid boss could be killed with purely hybrid dps.
Oh, please explain what normal is for us…
i literally posted how proxy made a good argument, which was very compelling to consider the intricacies which are so fragile they vary so much resulting in a lot of the garbage MMOs because they missed the sweet spot that vanilla had, and trusting the current guys, considerings what they would have to take into account for each individual item im a bit more satisfied, im not close minded here, Im just asking for someone to make a compelling argument against changes without just regurgitating some meme, you dont have to reply to everything you read…
normal is high end guilds excluding all but the best dps specs despite teh fact that the hardest boss fight dps wise (patchwerk) could be killed with an entire team full of hybrid dps…
i like how you always try to enforce a high end, raiding mentality on every single player. because apparently, thats how you are supposed to play the game.
i dont think so.
just shows why i couldnt stomach raiding in wotlk. and i will block and shun any person i see acting like (this) trash in classic.
So you disagree with what I said and that’s fine. Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has them. You don’t have to reply to everything you read either… but we all know you will because you are daring people to change your (already made up) mind.
Hey, thanks man. It does seem like most people just like arguing past each other though.
So? I must have missed the memo that said raiding the highest tier content is the only correct way to play the game. Maybe that guy was having fun seeing how far he could get as enhancement.
Fun? What do you think this is…a game?
I’d like to see them release the expansions just like they did with retail back in the day BUT different: make “classic WoW” unique compared to retail.
Like no ability pruning at all. Every expansions blizzard removed a few spells like Windfury totem was removed at the beginning of BC, they removed the unique priest 2spells that each priest races had with wotlk… Symbiosis,sentry totem, create spellstone/firestone, divine intervention,eyes of the beast,amplify/dampen magic,thorns just to name a few. Thats one of the reasons why im excited to play vanilla again: because they didnt prune it all slowly over time like they did with retail (or move it to pvp only talents)…
Also if they end adding cataclysm keep the old zones somehow, keep the old classes mechanics so no holy powers for paladin,hunters still use mana etc…
I’ve never played on private servers. I haven’t played vanilla WoW since 2006. I’m also not a no changes zealot; it was obvious from the start that this project was going to be a reasonably close representation of vanilla WoW, with changes to the client, graphical fidelity options, Bnet integration, etc.
That said, “small balance tweaks” isn’t something that I would advocate, and I think this would pose a large headache for the devs with minimal benefit. A lot of the “balance” issues in vanilla WoW were more gear related than skill or class mechanics related, and the class mechanics that were problematic actually required some major revamping to properly fix (like non-normalized rage and ridiculous warrior scaling in top-end gear).
To possibly achieve anything resembling better balance, the developers would have to invent new items, revamp current item sets, and institute some pretty major mechanics changes. It’s entirely possible that all this would ultimately achieve is a change in the meta without any better balance at all. We would be pretty much where we are now but with a different class/spec hierarchy. Plus it wouldn’t be vanilla-like.
They should (and likely will) just leave things alone as far as the classes are concerned. The people who want hybrids to be capable of more dps are generally bad players who neither understand how to fully utilize a hybrid class nor how powerful their utility is in the majority of the game’s content. Paladins are basically the reason the alliance is favored in any group activity. Shamans are the only real AoE healers in the entire game. People cannot effectively raid without these classes. The entire point of hybrids is to be an enabler that does what’s most helpful for the group at that point in time.
The game is fine as is.
Are you now arguing that the one and only thing vanilla was actually attempted to be balanced around doesn’t matter for class balance???
And before mogar comes claiming that it wasn’t about raiding (because somehow HIM being a casual player means something) actually vanilla devs confirmed that not only was just raiding everything for vanilla balance concerns, but it was the ONLY thing considered for them. They didn’t even consider PvP for balance concerns until post release hotfixes and whatnot, and raid balance trickled down into the rest of the pve content.
That’s how balance works in this game, you balance for the top of the pyramid, where you can more or less remove player talent as a variable, rather than trying to balance around the casual dregs.
I like how you (and mogar) ignore reality on how much significantly MORE raid centric vanilla was compared to the entire game’s history since that time. While you two are dismissive of potential class balance changes on the raid level (Which apparently you not only completely lack the knowledge and experience to comment on, being “casual and proud”, but which also wouldn’t even impact either of you in any significant fashion whatsoever regardless)… but perhaps it’s YOU that should go scurry off to BfA, it’s the version of the game that’s actually designed with casual players like yourselves in mind.
And with how vanilla raiding works and guild recruitment works, that’s essentially a progression death sentence. Good guilds don’t recruit from people running 5mans for pre-raid gear, they recruit from guilds less progressed than they are and poach people of desirable classes that are already in epics and can come in and perform.
And those guilds aren’t going to be rushing to take the hybrid when even geared they bring 1/2 the value that a geared meta class does (and that’s counting their vaunted utility which shouldn’t even be counted because it’s invariably already being brought by the healer versions of those classes)
The top 2 horde guilds on my server ended up with 7 thunderfury’s between us, despite the fact that we only crafted 3 total between both guilds. But we sure did love taking those thunderfury tanks away from that Enhancement Shaman’s guild, and they sure loved not having to carry the dead weight constantly.
au contraire mon frere. i never raided in vanilla or bc but played many hours a day (probably more than you unless you were trying for the high warlord title (i wasn’t)). played the heck outta the game but only ran one dungeon (BRD of all places, was my first dungeon experience and we didnt even have a full group) before tbc dropped.
vanilla is more than raiding. it’s more than pvp.
Were there any CLASSES that could not raid effectively? No, there were not.
It sounds like they got CLASSES pretty well balanced to me.
I don’t even know how to broach this. I’m saying that there are many many MANY things to do in this game other than high end raiding. People not raiding or not following a meta spec or gear list doesn’t invalidate them as players. But I don’t want you to think this is just some insignificant ‘casuals’ argument and that high end raiding made/makes up the lions share of classic players. That’s not the case.
Oh, nevermind. You’re just one of those delusional elitists. My bad.
I am opposed to anything that runs the risk of making the game more like the current version. If you want “new crafting materials” and “balance changes,” that’s what we have BfA for. Go play that instead if you don’t want to play Vanilla.
Good lord… the same garbage from every single casual player.
What does raid participation rates have to do with ANYTHING in this topic?
Let me clue you in, not a single damn thing…
The game was designed and balanced entirely around -raiding- . This has even been said in dev interviews regarding vanilla class design. The concept that most people couldn’t find the time, or enough other players to engage in what the game was entirely designed around and for, was apparently a major design flaw of vanilla, that led to later iterations of the game taking a significantly more casual friendly design approach.
Try actually answering the question rather than deflecting into nonsense next time.
You either have absolutely no concept of what the word “delusional” means, or you’re one of the most hilariously ironic people I’ve ever met… because the only one between us who is deluded, is you there, chief. You don’t get to just ignore fundamental facts of reality, just because they don’t fit your casual centric playstyle.
I mean, that’s not even true within the context of pures… but let’s entertain your fantasy world for a second…
The game is purposely designed to make respeccing difficult and expensive. Why is it designed like this? Because your spec choice is supposed to matter.
Moreover, your gear between various specs of hybrids really doesn’t have a ton of overlap… An enhance shaman is in agility mail/leather, not anything that they can actually heal in… And even an Elemental shaman, which does utilize caster gear, is wearing DAMAGE caster gear, not healing caster gear (which is a -=very=- significant healing loss to do so)… Gear was also not all that easy to come by in vanilla…The net effect is that again, your spec was an important choice that wasn’t just something you easily jumped back and forth on, particularly as a hybrid where you’d have to essentially start over gear wise.
In this context, it’s much easier to see how hybrids get so upset about balance concerns… Telling someone who rolled a Paladin because they expect to be a holy knight wearing plate and fighting people in melee combat that they’re “fine” because they can wear pretty cloth dresses and spam healing in the back is pretty powerfully insulting, and even antithetical to what the class is supposed to be.
This is because 10 years of experience has made it so we cannot trust Activision-Blizzard to make changes. And even seemingly minor tweaks can have a butterfly effect on everything else. We want an unmolested and original version of the game without opening Pandora’s box of balance tweaks. Once that door is open it does not close again.
Some people within the Classic community know this, but Activision-Blizzard does not. If they had any idea what made classic great we never would have wound up with WoD, Legion, and BFA. People don’t trust them given their atrocious track record. And Classic is not Ion Hazzikostas’s to ruin this time.
What are you even talking about? I was never asked a question. You keep going on about balancing classes around raiding, but I fail to see how that’s relevant to this thread. The OP was proposing ways to improve the original design of the game.
So are you suggesting that somehow these hypothetical changes should be also balanced around high end raiding? Because I don’t think the argument that you should fix broken things using the same method that created the broken things in the first place is a great one.
Or are you suggesting they not tinker with balance issues? Because that’s also what I’m arguing for, so you’re really just insulting people on your own side at that point.
If you can give me a clear and concise version of whatever argument you’re trying to make I will happily address it directly. In the mean time, if you could not call people dregs and garbage and otherwise be dismissive of people outright because they don’t share your view on what the important part of a game is I’d really appreciate it.
oh, also, for what its worth: I did put forth a cogent argument against what the OP was suggesting to the point where he admitted my viewpoint has merit
^that
Yes, albeit with consideration so that said changes don’t also break PvP.
Pick one, you don’t get both as they are contradictory statements… Leaving hybrids in the state they are in for raid balance IS using the same method that created the broken things in the first place, and advocating against changing it is in fact, doubling down on an already proven to fail design scheme for those specs.
People don’t trust blizzard’s judgement on changes because blizzard’s judgement on changes turned vanilla into the mess that is retail.