That’s cute… you actually think you have the high ground. 
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You have, for many years now, repeatedly gone out of your way to misrepresent, misinterpret and blatantly lie about my words, a trend you’ve even continued just now. Why would I suddenly care about your views of my morality? That’s hardly an equal exchange, given even if I gave you exactly what you wanted, you’d find a way to misrepresent, misinterpret and lie about it.
Hell, you even went ahead and deleted your original post to edit this bit in, because you’re just a dishonest person.
And yet…
Y’know what? I’m nearly done collecting my lunar coins. When I’m done with that, I’ll go ahead and give you my views on Thrall’s actions, asking nothing in return.
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Many years? I don’t even remember talking to you before, SL maybe. I would also point out you have done the same, not the least of which is that whole rp you keep saying I am doing.
Yes I do. Or more precisely I am not blowing hot air about how “genocide is wrong” while ignoring the faction that has caused, what 5 genocides(if you want a reason for me to dislike the Horde, that is a good place as any to start)
I am actually curious to see what this is.
You still have not offered an explanation for your attempted negotiations over Tirigard and Ashenvale.
I gotta find one more coin, but I’ll spoil this one; you’ll hate it, lie about what I say, misrepresent my words, and misintepret what I’ve said.
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The elements literally stopped talking to their shaman after they went to war with the draenei. Saying they didn’t have any agency is wrong. They had red flags up the wazoo and yet they chose their path.
Too late by that point considering Gul’dan was present. Maybe if Gul’dan wasn’t around to immediately seize the opportunity to offer them the power of Warlocks they could have relented but oh well.
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I did and this proves your gastlighting tendencies. I specifically mentioned if you want Tirigarde gone ingame then Blizzard should do the same for the Alliance and get rid of the Horde in Ashenvale.
It wasn’t “too late” by any stretch. As I recall this happened before Shattrath fell.
That is not explaining why you were making these demands to players though.
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I wasn’t “demanding” it of anyone and simply posting what I want to happen.
Actually, you are not… because you keep trying to justify genocide.
This is just your most recent excuse.
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I have said, repeatedly, that Daelin was wrong for starting a war.
I mean you were, but okay. You’ve established well enough that language might not be your strong suit, so in the interest of being the moral person, I’ll accept this. I’m sorry for assuming your worded-as-demands-but-weren’t-demands comments made me think it was just some weird forum RP, Zerde.
Found my last coin, now off to buy my last lunar thingy transmog.
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Really? Where?
Have you ever said it was wrong to want to kill the orcs, though? To target them for being Orcs?
Have you ever said it was wrong to hate a group simply because they are not the one you are a part of?
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It wasn’t “too late” by any stretch. As I recall this happened before Shattrath fell.
That it did, however Gul’dan was already spreading the power of fel in the form of the Warlocks (first in the Blackrock Clan, but shamans from other clans soon followed) and we already know that Fel amplifies negative traits (violence, bloodthirst, etc), is very addictive and pushes down positive traits (heroism, empathy, so on and so forth)
Also, on the topic of Daelin:
Daelin was wrong for starting a war but his hatred was understandable: Dude was a father and lost Derek to the Old Horde. To claim he’s JUST a racist or JUST good is poor – He is squarely in the wrong, judging all orcs past present and future for the First and Second Wars is ill, however no parent should outlive their child.
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Time spent on this forum suggests yes.
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So, time to give Zerde what he wants while giving him not what he wants.
Alynsa Discusses the Morality of Thrall and Mass Imprisonment
Normally I don’t give a real TLDR for my posts, and when I do they come at the end. This shall be an exception, because the main takeaway is very simple:
Warcraft III is full of morally grey characters doing what they thought was for the greater good at the time, but too often was questionable in hindsight.
With that out of the way, let’s address the camps themselves.
The camps as presented were absolutely a bad thing. Zerde might want to talk about the war criminals interred in them, but it wasn’t just war criminals. Civilians, children, every orc was shoved into the camps. There was no guilt or innocence, just punishment.
And yet, what’s the alternative?
There’s no deporting these invaders. The Dark Portal was closed. There’s no land readily available to settle the noncombattant orcs in, and you’d still need to imprison the combattants. While some might think genocide is justifiable, that’s only what the most immoral people would want, and even the leaders of the Alliance only considered it when there weren’t other viable options available. We don’t even know if they’d’ve gone through with it if it had been considered the only option, because genocide is never justifiable.
Imprisonment is the only option on the table. So what about improving conditions?
In a world of infinite finance, that’s a great idea. But while our characters can casually toss millions of gold at buying some pretty transmog, it isn’t how the world of Azeroth is portrayed to behave. Money is a limited commodity, and the kingdoms of Azeroth are stated to have been stretching the wallets to keep the camps existing as they were. It’s a miracle that the conditions weren’t more abusive (a miracle no doubt caused in some small part by the game rating system).
But, to an inmate in these prisons, that’s an abstract that isn’t really relevant to their daily lives.
The Internment Camps were horrible. Every description of them confirms this. Add to that the fact the orcs’ invasion had been the result of manipulation by greater forces than themselves, forces that also ensured a long-term form of passive control through demon’s blood addiction, and it’s questionable how much of the orcs’ actions were even their own.
You might want to say that of course they were responsible, and I don’t disagree. But their capacity was very obviously diminished, and this is shown in the world itself. It took well over a decade for withdrawal symptoms to start kicking in, and it had an immediate affect on their behavior. They’re less aggressive, more lethargic, more rational. While they have responsibility for their actions, the demon’s blood is very much a major factor into their behavior as well.
And then there’s the babies.
While Thrall is the most special baby in any internment camp, he was never presented as an excweption for being a baby in the camps. He was exceptional for his upbringing. Other young orcs are present with Thrall, some older and some younger. So unless you’re a crazy person who believes children are born with the guilt of their parents’ crimes, it’s clear there is a very serious flaw with the Internment Camp system, even if no better solution is available.
The Internment Camps were immoral. But they were the best solution to a unique problem.
So, is what Thrall did utterly immoral? Let’s address that.
The camps are bad, we’ve addressed that. The camps were imprisoning people whose sole crime was existing. Even the criminals within the camps were criminals under diminished capacity, and initially under duress; greater forces controlled and manipulated them into their actions. None of this was considered as mitigating factors of their crimes because, frankly, it couldn’t matter to the humans regardless. The orc problem needed a solution, and this was the only viable one.
That is meaningless to the every day life of the orcs.
To the orcs, this is a punishment that isn’t befitting the crime. Mass imprisonment, irregardless of guilt or innocence, irregardless of mitigating factors, irregardless over whether or not you had even been born during the conflict, is immoral. Justified due to a lack of alternatives, but still immoral.
And because those guilty of genocide and those too young to have committed even a single crime at all are all housed together, Thrall’s only options were for his people to remain imprisoned in substandard conditions by any means, or for everyone to escape. There was no other option; he cannot only free the guiltless, because they are imprisoned with the guilty, and remaining imprisoned for crimes the guiltless did not commit is likewise immoral. And given there was no planned ending to the camps, no aging out of them, no freeing the children as they came of age (we have children who came of age, and they were still imprisoned), the most justified course of action is simple; free everyone and go somewhere new. Even if you need to bring the human-slaughterers with you, because at least somewhere far from humans, you are still removing the criminals from their victims.
Thrall’s actions were not moral. But they were justifiable.
The Camps were not moral. But they were justifiable.
It’s all painted in varying shades of grey.
But what is never moral or justifiable is genocide, no matter what some crazy, deluded, sociopathic people might want to pretend to think.
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And if Thrall had only freed civilians/children he would have been in the absolute right, he however freed everyone.
The alternative was hopefully find a cure for the lethargy. And as far as say Antonidas was concerned that was ultimately one of his goals. To hopefully someday rehabilitate the orcs and actual integrate them into Alliance society. But you know problems kept cropping up thus making it an impossibility.
He could have found out who among them was guilty. Sent them back to the camp, but no, he didn’t really care. He was freeing his people regardless if they participated in the First and Second or not. Hence, why Ettrigg was saved.
No, freeing war criminals who committed war crimes should not be justifiable! So this is ultimately where it ended, you are justifying freeing of war criminals who killed and murder and pillage because Thrall couldn’t be bother to try and vet people.
This I can agree with. Saying that Thrall didn’t have a choice seems as foolish as saying Daelin didn’t have one. He had a choice, he choose to free all his people regardless of what they did during the war. Both had reasons for their choices and had circumstances been different maybe they would have both chosen something different.
Already addressed.
When it’s the only option for getting the guiltless out? Absolutely it is. Just as justifiable as imprisoning them was, which I saw you’re totally cool with.
And what? Tell them to sit and stay? How would that even work, Zerde?
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Free only the women and children of a certain age. Because, yeah we know all the orcs of X to Y age were part of the genocidal First and Second war. And considering the lethargy of the time, you probably wouldn’t even need to say sit and stay, they would just…stay.
Or he could have talked to Terenas, instead of his initial action being one of violence he could have tried to reason with him and appeal to his humanity. Thrall had other options, there were always other options but the Horde and yes even the Alliance, have usually just resorted to violence as their first go to move.
Again, how?
There’s no prison cells. It’s just a walled camp. How would you propose Thrall keep the “bad orcs” in, other than telling them to sit, stay? What would prevent them from just walking out with everyone else?
So, okay. He could just walk up to Terenas and say “hey, let us go” and think the same guy who is already just totally fine with keeping the women and children in the camps already will suddenly change his mind? Because one of those orcs talked to him?
That’s not even slightly realistic.
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