They’re ships zerde, nobody was genocided or killed because a few inanimate objects were stolen to flee to Kalimdor
Which allowed the horde, alongside the alliance to help save the world
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Aside from the absurdity of that statement. What is the point? Either you are trying justify genocide against the Horde (still a flat “no” to me). Or you are throwing out same random accusation.
Again, wrong and pointless.
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I’ve been concentrating on the “nobody deserves to be genocided” because I consider it, by far, most important points to make here.
But let’s be honest, the term “Horde Genocide” gets thrown around so much, and so inaccurately, that I would call it a joke. That is if it wasn’t based on such a bad concept as racial guilt.
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So there’s a few factors going on with the state of the Horde at the end of the second war.
A big complication is the lethargy that kicked in after the defeat of the orcs, which was somewhere between turbo DTs where they were completely incapable of functioning and … a major league caliber depression nap. Depending on who’s writing and how much pathos they feel like wringing from the era.
Then, of course, there’s the fact that most of people who are currently too sad/ in withdrawal/whatever to remember how to eat were recently sweeping across the land in an omnicidal rampage of blood-gore-edgy90s stuff.
Also, they blew up their planet and there’s no way to just put them back in their box and close the lid. And they’re currently not in a state to communicate about it.
Now, to be clear, I’m not saying that putting the orcs in camps and making Gilneas pay for it was an example of upstanding moral rectitude. I’m just saying that this is one of the precious few moments where this franchise manages a glint of nuance and, dare I say, A COMPLICATED MORAL DILEMNA. Glazing over all the detail for a “Gotcha, you are now the bad guy” is a disservice to an interesting quandary.
And while it’s better to oversimplify fiction to black and white for moralizing points rather than robbing real life of it’s color… There genuinely are some things to unpack about why the remains of the Alliance might have been mean to the remains of the Horde after the second war. And I find that more interesting than a bit of quick moralizing.
If that’s what we’re still talking about. I honestly keep losing the plot in this thread, and if the quotes I (admittedly) cherry picked are about the Warcraft 2 Horde, well… OKAY THEN I GUESS
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Complicated indeed. I mean, you haven’t even started to include that the Orcs were literally lied to and drugged. That fact remains that both sides have committed atrocities.
If one stays away from racial guilt and excusing genodice, you could have a valid discussion. (Note: every post I’ve seen with the term “horde genocide” has not been that.).
But I’m not sure why you would even bother. If even if the claim wasn’t dubious, what does it mean if the Alliance has been “bit less horrible”? Not much that I can see.
Especially since racial guilt is hogwash. Just as Lorethemar isn’t responsible for what Sylvanas did. Neither is Andean responsible for what Jaina did. So if they are standing on opposite sides of an issue. It makes no difference.
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I’m not talking about racial guilt, though. That tends to be more of a generational issue and is for people smarter than me to parse.
I’m talking about what to do with orcs like Saurfang, or Grommash, or the many, many orcs who were incredibly, personally, guilty of the atrocities of the first and second wars and who were now not in a position to make informed choices due to whatever mental issue you want to peg the lethargy as.
Mind if I kick it back at you? What would you do with the orcs after the second war, were you Terenas?
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Did you think those ships were empty? If anything the crew were likely killed by the Horde. Heck, we know Alliance soldier were killed by them in their attempts to escape.
And ultimately another reason for the Alliance to attack the Horde/not trust it wanted peace.
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SAVING THE WORLD along the side the alliance IS NOT a reason to attack the horde
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Again saving their own skin as oppose to saving anyone else.
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The
World
Was
Saved
Alongside
The
Alliance
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The world was being endangered by members/former members of the Horde themselves. Don’t forget, the Lich King was Ner’zhul. No Ner’zhul=/=no Scourge and no Legion.
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Still saved the world
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And endangered it in the first place.
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See, this is why I can’t follow the plot of this thread. Where are we now? What actions are we talking about, or are we just roving up and down the timeline in search of gotchas?
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I’m not really paying attention to this while playing Starcraft 1.
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I been playing Diablo 2 a lot lately. Mostly a summoner druid. Fun times.
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Personally, it would depend on how much I know about the situation. I’ve never played WCI/II so I’ve got no idea how much awareness there is regarding the Orcs and their circumstances.
As it stands with what I know about Orc culture, I’d probably go after the leaders at least those who were initially in power if not also those who rose to power during the war.
The rest would be rounded up, it’d be difficult, but I’d try to keep the abuses and summery executions to a minimum. While that’s in place I’d get the mages and priests, and probably the warlocks as they also would have incites, and begin working on curing the demonic blood taint.
Also, for those Orcs so inclined I’d find work, I doubt it’d be easy work, but I’d try to find them something that might let them take care of themselves while also perhaps helping to undo the damage their invasion caused.
I’d also try to help them see that war isn’t all they can find honor in and perhaps help them finish the transition they were starting down before the Legion found them and offered their elders a way to return to the “good old days”.
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The big problem is at that point, they’re so magically depressed they’re not capable of caring for themselves.
And the Alliance is in a very bad spot because they’ve been pillaged and raided for a decade or so. So resources for dealing with orcs are kind of thin on the ground.
Like I said, I find this period an interesting moral quandary.
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Thus, why I wanted to get the mages and priests involved to try and undo the corruption. Need to get them back on their feet and able to take care of themselves, even if it’s just managing gardens/farms near/in the camps to start feeding themselves.
This is something I didn’t think too much about, I imagine they are in a bad way themselves, however I’ve got no idea how bad it actually would have been. Azeroth wars don’t seem to have the same weight and consequences that real world wars do.
With politics being what it is even if a way forward could be developed and executed in a timely and efficient manner it would get derailed by those looking to take advantage for their own personal gains or even because they had people suffering who can’t wait for the fast track to get to them… pretty much just real life.
That it is. I’m fairly certain there is a viable path forward I’m just not sure anyone would be willing to walk it given the past.
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