The Alliance, by all evidence in recent years.
Any exile faction they’d make that are Alliance sympathizers.
And again, the reason does not matter. It is a point of fact that they suddenly faction changed. Full stop. Your red herrings have no power here.
Yeah, her excuse is a lot better.
Straw man fallacy. Red herring fallacy. Your argument is like Steven Hawking.
Smart? No no no, unable to stand up.
The reason explicitly matters, because this is the story forum. Lore, reasons, explanations, world-building? It all matters. It’s no red herring, it’s pure, non-retconned canon.
You’re still avoiding my point about the frenzied state and are instead trying to negate it, ignore it, remove it from the equation. And I will keep reminding you of it every time you try to do so and instead try to shut me down.
And?
And still about as relevant as Anduin’s brand of moisturizer. That’s what a red herring fallacy is.
Except it isn’t in the equation.
I said 2+2=4
You said no, 4-3=1
It’s totally irrelevant.
Yes, it is relevant.
You’re saying, Forsaken immediately faction swapped from Alliance to Horde. Therefore, Calia, who in spite of being very friendly with mainly Alliance-aligned characters, could swap over to Horde easily to become the new leader of the Forsaken, even if it came out of nowhere. Simple, right? Look, it happened in Andorhal, Silverpine and Darkshore! Completely out of nowhere, Alliance became Horde with a snap of a finger. You say that therefore, Calia = Horde is a simple and sensible thing to do. Full stop, nothing further to discuss.
Not even the details of the snap of the finger that made them faction swap. Not worth discussing, the only relevance you saw to it was Alliance -> Horde, and that’s all the use you’ve made of the three scenarios in Andorhal, Silverpine and Darkshore. Instant Horde, just add undeath, all that needs to be spoken of.
It’s not like the Forsaken have a history since Cata of manipulating the fallen dead into becoming last minute shock troops and then giving them the choice of either getting killed again or getting roped into their ranks, which is a completely different context than being safely raised into undeath in a controlled environment by friends who are there to reassure you when you’re back, then suddenly abandoning them because you’d rather join the faction that opposes that of your friends, knowing that if war breaks out again you’ll have to fight said friends, because you’d rather be the leader of your former people.
Said people, especially the pre-Cata portion, has gone through so many trials and tribulations since the plague of Lordaeron that they’re no longer the people of Lordaeron. They’re the Forsaken. Because they have been forsaken. They’ve suffered, they’ve grown distant from who they were, accepted the darker parts of undeath through their work on the New Plague and eventually even stripped down their old human homes in favor of a new Forsaken architecture. Those who came after Cata adopted the new culture as their own because of their shared suffering - suffering that Calia did not experience, because she was not abandoned by her friends nor cast down by being an undead. At least Lilian Voss went through a similar process as the Forsaken. Forsaken by her former friends and colleagues, forsaken by her own father, all the people she knew and loved. Everything she was, everything she believed in got flipped on its head when she was raised into undead.
Not Calia. She’s the same person in life and undeath. She didn’t change. She hasn’t been forsaken.
But some of the Forsaken instantly switched over from Alliance to Horde either because they were forsaken by the Alliance and turned to the Horde for an alliance of convenience (pre-Cata Forsaken) or through manipulation of their frenzied state after being raised from the dead (post-Cata Forsaken), therefore a sudden switch for Calia’s affiliations to be Horde makes sense? I think not.
Yup. That’s precedent.
They discussed it WAY more than those in Darkshore/Silverpine/Andorhal.
Pretty much how the lore acts, yes.
She’s fighting former friends either way, and this way maybe she can help some of them, and maybe not have to watch friends fight anymore. Sounds like a better reason to change sides than “because totally-not-mind-control made you feel bad.”
If I go out of my way to isolate myself and violently fend off anyone who approaches, I’m not abandoned, I’m a violent emo.
Which can be steered away from. Tough.
Nor were most by the looks of things. Propaganda machine working full tilt, that.
She was a Scarlet. Duh. Most weren’t.
So?
Yup. More sense, in fact. She had time to come to a decision. Just proves the complaint that it’s “sudden” is not only untrue, it’s the bloody reverse of the truth. It’s the other ones that are sudden.
Well, then you are lost.
Also, frenzied state.
Still irrelevant!
Frenzied state.
Temper temper, had to flag that one.
You’re right. My temper flared for a moment, and I apologize. I try to remain impersonal in these sorts of arguments.
Sadly, I doubt that continuing this conversation will do anything other than go in circles until we die of old age. We seem to be both entrenched in our ideals, we’re repeating the same points over and over, and our respective comments towards one another are increasingly moving from passive-aggressive to aggressive. This does not bode well for a continued conversation.
I’m sure we all have better things to do than argue endlessly. It’s a waste of everyone’s time when both sides refuse to budge, and as the saying goes, “to repeat the same action expecting a different result is the definition of insanity”.
I bury the hatchet and bid you goodnight. Or, if it’s daytime or afternoon where you are, good day or good afternoon.
I basically see the resistance to Calia as purely displeasure at the idea that she’ll influence the Undead race for the better, and the desire to continue playing a de-facto villain faction. The rest of the arguments all ring hollow, and reek of disingenuousness.
Because just looking at if it makes sense? It does. I just think people are deflecting from not liking the narrative direction or the deviation from their headcanon.
Good thing there’s still war in Warcraft if the Forsaken aren’t the caricatures you want them to be.
I guess will just have to see what the writers have in store.
Funny how you keep saying that when your terrible takes are called terrible.
The only reason Gnomeragan wasn’t made a playable and friendly city was for faction balance.
I demand 50/50. The Horde get back Undercity, then the Alliance get a new tree or something really REALLY major as a city and not just some expansion to a town that already exists.
But not outside the realm of possibility.
There is very little outside the realm of possibility, that doesn’t net you any points. Warcraft spontaneously turning into StarCraft with zero explanation is inside the realm of possibility, but largely improbable.
Your (dumpster fire) ideas are possible, but they’re not probable. Your only good argument for them is “they could happen,” which isn’t an argument at all. You, a person who clearly doesn’t like Forsaken, shouldn’t really be paid any heed at all for what you think about the Forsaken.
In your eyes at least. I find it deliciously ironic that a human paladin of all things is looking out for the positivity in Forsaken when they where clearly designed for anything but in the realm of the living.
They casually eat the damn flesh of their enemies when they’re dead. How can you find redemption in that?
Slyvanas being gone was a blow but that doesn’t mean that the Forsaken have to give up their ferocity just because the likes of Calia is poking her head out of the wood-works.
This has nothing to do with Calia. The whole point of the Forsaken is that they’re not the same monsters as a Scourge or some other undead hoard. It’s like… literally the first thing about them.
But again… you thought Arthas leading them was a good idea, so I really can’t stress how little stock I or anyone should put into your opinions on the Forsaken, or frankly anything.
It could still happen and the idea of it drives you mad.