So warriors are just screwed for all of WOTLK?

[Abralan-benediction]

@Kynsalia-grobbulus

If you have 100% avoidance/block you cannot be crit. Meaning that dps Warriors can become Crit Immune for short periods of time with absolutely 0 defense or resilence, or talents, nothing but a shield. Paladins and DKs cannot do anything remotely similar

The normal chance to crit is 5.6%. That boss is likely 1 or 2 shotting you regardless. Only pain supp or shield wall is going to keep you going for a few seconds. Rogue by contrast can last longer more likely.

@Kynsalia-grobbulus

Irrelevant, Ret will go oom before the above Shield Blocking Warrior dies

You know why preg is a dominant PVP spec? You think a ret can only heal for 5 seconds and then has 0 mana? okay.

@Kynsalia-grobbulus

I already went over how easy it is to replace Ret’s buffs. Next

3% raid damage is 100% going to be from your ret. Also your might blessing, and likely replenishment. Can also be another dsac, also can freedom, bop, and cleanse which helps in numerous encounters.

@Kynsalia-grobbulus

This is outright just a lie and you know it is. Fury is 50 dps behind Ret in its full damage spec that doesn’t include many of the utility mentioned

How is it a lie when you yourself admit ret is 50 more? Also, I loaded those cited sims. In the warrior sim, move off of Troll race and also use the Fury spec that almost every top 100 warrior uses and you lose 400 dps. That sim is cooked with an outdated unused overpower spec that no one actually uses but in inflates the sim like 200-300 dps.

@Kynsalia-grobbulus

Exactly, different game, hybrid tax was a VANILLA AND TBC THING

Its very much a WotLK thing too. You cant in one breath say warriors have to be bad because they were good in a different game, but then tax shouldnt exist in a version of the game we are playing where tax very clearly still exists. Look at where all the actual hybrids like elementals, shadow priest, feral before it was uber-buffed, ret, etc all were in phase one through three lol. The numbers are all right there. Duh, having utility is a strength that requires some sacrifice in other areas, lest you be overpowered.

[Abralan-benediction]

@Scarletpimp-arugal

we were told we’d be on top!”- it’s a bad argument

Aggrend himself said this and why they werent buffing warrior. Instead they were changing Feral to be #1 overall and #1 melee and Ret to be #2 melee.

Turns out the sims were right and warriors were never 252 kings and they never scaled that hard afterall Sims always showed mostly parallel scaling.

[Beèfd-faerlina]

I still don’t understand the problem.

[Jeynar-mannoroth]

@Abralan-benediction

You know why preg is a dominant PVP spec? You think a ret can only heal for 5 seconds and then has 0 mana? okay.

You think preg being a thing is a reasonable argument for why rets can’t do damage in raids?

I don’t think you understand why preg works the way it does.

[Abralan-benediction]

@Jeynar-mannoroth

You think preg being a thing is a reasonable argument for why rets can’t do damage in raids?

I don’t think you understand why preg works the way it does

was regarding healing

pregs and rets can offheal and self-heal in a meaningful way. As can elementals and enhancement. Preg/enhance will heal more than a holy paladin in some games.

[Jeynar-mannoroth]

@Abralan-benediction

was regarding healing

So you don’t understand why preg is a thing, you should’ve just said.

[Kynsalia-grobbulus]

@Abralan-benediction

How is it a lie when you yourself admit ret is 50 more?

It’s only better when Ret doesn’t bring its biggest utility of Divine Sacrifice
How do you not understand this.

@Abralan-benediction

You know why preg is a dominant PVP spec? You think a ret can only heal for 5 seconds and then has 0 mana?

@Kynsalia-grobbulus

We’re not talking about PvP.
But yes in the context of PvP yes Ret, Shadow, Boomkin, etc are hybrids and Warriors are not.

Yes I play Preg in PvP. You are spot healing from procs not spam hard casting heals like you’d be expected to in any situation you’re referring too.
If I’m Preg and I stop to spam heals I’ll be oom in seconds.

@Abralan-benediction

3% raid damage is 100% going to be from your ret.

And that’s 1 for 1 to Commanding Shout

@Abralan-benediction

Can also be another dsac,

Refer to the beginning.

@Abralan-benediction

That sim is cooked with an outdated unused overpower spec that no one actually uses but in inflates the sim like 200-300 dps.

Cool and having Divine Sac loses Ret 500-800 dps.

@Abralan-benediction

Its very much a WotLK thing too.

It’s not. Their entire design philosophy was “Bring the Player not the Class” which means every class and spec is expected to perform their primary role well.
But we’ve explained this to you 10 times now

[Instincts-ashkandi]

Most warriors are so bad I actually cringe if theres one in my raid or dung. All i like about them is if i am playing my feral i dont need to keep mangle debuff up…

[Holyseizure-whitemane]

The difference between the sims are so miniscule between each other at the top, that the person who plays the best will top meters, or if the encounter is more suited for range vs melee.

Mages will top,
Spriests will top,
Ferals,
Fury,
Ret.
Locks
Hunters

These will all top.

This is as it should be.

[Jeynar-mannoroth]

@Holyseizure-whitemane

The difference between the sims are so miniscule between each other at the top

Basically, if you sneeze during an encounter you vary the dps more than the sim currently does between the top single target classes.

The simmed dps balance is crazy close atm, to a point where I don’t think it has been in WoW for a decade or so.

[Beèfd-faerlina]

I can’t believe I am agreeing so strongly with one of your posts.

It do be facts tho.

[Abralan-benediction]

@Instincts-ashkandi

All i like about them is if i am playing my feral i dont need to keep mangle debuff up

like .01% of players are Arms as its below meme-tier, Fury doesnt apply mangle - I hope youre casting mangle ever 60 sec lol.

[Abralan-benediction]

@Holyseizure-whitemane

that the person who plays the best will top meters

a 450 dps gap is more than a major trinket upgrade, and that is around what rets will have according to the sims. If youve loaded the sims that some cite for a “50 dps gain” with ret, go to the warrior one and fix the spec because it uses an outdated overpower spec that almost no one in the top 100 uses that adds like 200-300 dps to the sim because reasons, and then swap off troll and you lose another 100-200. Its actually a pretty big gap. If the reality was warriors did 450 more than ret, then yes, ret would be very strong as it has all its utility. But if ret is doing 450 more, warrior is not strong, because you dont have those strengths.

The current sims are proof that the 0-1 warriors per raid that was viewed as ideal through most of wotlk (like Beefbar even runs 1 prot and 0 dps warriors in one of its raids) will continue to be ideal. People expected you could take at least a couple or three furies and not be gimping yourself but that isnt the case.

Stacking ferals is actually really good, as its #1 overall dps with a battle rez and innervate. And raids are always taking 4+ paladins as it is - now with rets so high on dmg wont hurt to take even more.

[Holyseizure-whitemane]

If using overpower and troll gives warriors such a dps gain, then it’s what will be used.

This is 100% facts.

Blizzard about to get some $ from race changes.

[Abralan-benediction]

@Holyseizure-whitemane

If using overpower and troll gives warriors such a dps gain, then it’s what will be used.

This is 100% facts.

Blizzard about to get some $ from race changes

This is old tech, so youre wrong, it wont be used. Half the players roughly are on alliance so cant be troll. Many other reasons ppl pick non-troll as well as horde. But the bigger dps gain was from Overpower spec, that again, everyone tried when they found the sim added dps for it, and now no one uses.

I explained above in detail why. Overpower in practice is largely unused because of how raids function outside of a sim scenario. This news is like a year old, and most warriors, especially every top 100 warriors, knows about it for half a year or more.

[Smeetologist-pagle]

@Abralan-benediction

If you have a warrior, and then a second warrior with all the same spells and dps but the second can also offheal, cleanse, freedom, salve, sac, bubble, etc… doesnt that just make warrior two objectively grossly overpowered compared to warrior one?

No, because you are bringing that class for DPS in your raid, your holy paladin can do all of that stuff, and it’s exceedingly rare you need to use them once in a raid, nevermind twice.

There’s no reason to penalize the ret for having abilities they rarely use.

Might as well penalize warrior for having pummel, intervene, shouts, thunderclap, etc., then too! Sometimes those are good!

@Abralan-benediction

The whole point of a tax is to compensate for other strengths. If you have other strengths that you cannot physically use than you arent a hybrid.

Every class has strengths that don’t apply to others. Warrior mobility is much better than Ret’s, can interrupt far more often, have better CC, better cleave, has commanding shout that no one else matches in strength, are a great source of sunder armor, have shattering throw for an extra raid DPS cooldown.

That’s also not what a hybrid is anyway. Hybrid is defined as can respec to tank of healer, nothing else.

And classes were taxed for that, not the extra stuff that they could do while DPSing maybe.

Imagine having warrior DPS dropped by 1000 because pummel is good on Vezax. That’s basically what you are advocating happening to ret when you list stuff like salv, freedom, or BoP as overpowered utilities. It’s so rare that these abilities need use, and that your ret is the only source that it isn’t even funny.

@Abralan-benediction

As dps, none of the tanking abilities or talents are useful. No fights in the game have ever been built around warriors being fury but offtanking.

Ditto with any hybrid actively offhealing. Can it be useful sometimes? Sure. But so have there been fights where a fury can put on a shield and pick up an add for a short while in an emergency.

Healer hybrids don’t have their DPS balanced around their ability to be a bad healer in a pinch for the same reason warrior DPS isn’t hurt because you can pick up an add sometimes to save a healer. It’s not common, and it’s not why you bring a DPS.

@Abralan-benediction

Feral is the only class that is a hybrid tank,

They are definitely the best at it, they aren’t the only ones that can do it in a pinch. Hell, even rogues can temporarily evade tank something.

@Abralan-benediction

Youre crowd will also call Arms a PVP spec. There is no such thing.

Again, not according to the developers of wrath. Arms, Frost mage, and Sub rogue were clearly identified by them as specs they had no intention of making good in PvE due to PvP balance concerns.

How you think the game is balanced is quite different from the reality of how Wrath and beyond was balanced. Your design views line up better with vanilla WoW and TBC, and were left behind. They aren’t returning in the classic series.

[Stabyaninja-garithos]

We’re playing off the final patch where both warriors, and paladins were nerfed becuase of how overpowered they were with t10 set bonus’, and Shadowmourne.

Only one of those classes got actually buffed during WoTLK Classic…

[Wushupanda-grobbulus]

@Abralan-benediction

@Scarletpimp-arugal

we were told we’d be on top!”- it’s a bad argument

Aggrend himself said this and why they werent buffing warrior. Instead they were changing Feral to be #1 overall and #1 melee and Ret to be #2 melee.

Turns out the sims were right and warriors were never 252 kings and they never scaled that hard afterall Sims always showed mostly parallel scaling.

wait, you didn’t scale but went from near bottom to the absolute top? like feral and ret are only ahead because buffs. but warriors didn’t scale ?

[Smeetologist-pagle]

@Stabyaninja-garithos

Only one of those classes got actually buffed during WoTLK Classic…

Right. If paladins had not been buffed, they would be at arms/blood DK levels of DPS without shadowmourne, and ele shaman levels with it (but good luck having a raid slot for those weeks)

Paladin needed buffs to be a real DPS spec by the end of the game, warrior didn’t. That’s why warrior didn’t get significant buffs. If they had, they’d be miles ahead of everyone else in ICC instead of just amongst the best.

[Stabyaninja-garithos]

Weird because ret pallys were still doing great in OG WoTLK even after the nerfs prior to the Cata prepatch