making TG -5% instead of -10% would not make it first dps by any means… and using your logic from other arguments you’d say “who cares” if it was ret.
-5% would put it not much higher above ret than ret is currently above warrior.
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Paladins are great in FF14 and Guild Wars, they should be bad in WoW! /s
Paladins are a bit meh for dps in FFXiv ;p
It would bump the ICC fury sims from 16.5k to 17.3k DPS, 400 DPS ahead of the mistake that was the feral druid buff. The rest of the good DPS are simming about 16-16.5k
It would bring your ruby sanctum DPS sim to 17.7k DPS, still 400 DPS over the mistake that is feral, and almost 1000 DPS above the rest of the pack.
It would be a really stupid change if your goal was good balancing.
It doesn’t. You generally aren’t filling your raid team based on random utilities. You make sure you have coverage on everything important, which is super easy to do, and then largely fill based on DPS.
Occasionally a specific hard boss makes you consider specific utilities your DPS could bring. Commanding shout in warrior was one of those in Ulduar, which is why fury (or prot) typically had a raid slot in every high end raid during that tier, even with low relative DPS.
Divine Sacrifice wasn’t enough to get rets that treatment, as guilds already had enough from their holy/prot pals. You were far less likely to see a ret in early Ulduar progress than a fury warrior. (It was an absurd difference of about 60% on Algalon and yogg 0)
This is why blizzard didn’t balance WotLK based on utility. They wanted DPS specs brought even if they weren’t bringing a needed utility to the group. Speed run style guilds will always have their own weird raid stacks, but you aren’t supposed to have to do that to succeed.
It was intended that rets do about the same DPS as warriors. They did the first time around. New theorycraft, better gearing, and optimized play left them behind, and the balance change fixed the fact that ret was never intended to be the worst DPS spec in Wrath along with arms warrior and frost mage.
You don’t have to agree with it, but it’s basically you disagreeing with the design goal of WoW from wrath onward.
It matters when a raid is better off not having warriors.
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So it sounds like the community is the problem.
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Warriors bring Commanding shout. So most raids will bring 1 warrior.
We’re here to play wrath, if you want good balancing why aren’t you talking about Arms, BM, Destro, Frost, ect?
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Wrath design goals were never that every spec was equally PvE viable. The devs at the time specifically called out frost and arms as “pvp specs” and did not want to destabilize PvP by making them good at PvE.
The goal was that each class had the ability to do their role well.
Every one of those examples has a highly performing PvE spec in icecrown doing damage.
I’d be interested to see the original post where a dev stated they weren’t planning to balance arms because it was a pvp spec.
Here is a Dev post about what we’re actually currently playing.
Doesn’t really seem like they are trying to balance all the PVE DPS does it? Go on, try to twist it around.
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I’ve tried to find it before in the old blue tracker archives, but devs posted an insane amount compared to now, so I haven’t been able to locate it.
Back in wrath they did do a small buff to frost mages at some point if I recall correctly, and made a post basically saying “we don’t plan to make it just as good as fire because it would be a problem in pvp, but it could be a bit closer”
Just can’t find the actual post.
At the class level, they were, not at the spec level.
They explained it for me…
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Lol, well you tried. My point was that when you say they are trying to balance the game you are incorrect. The devs have been very clear that they want the balance of the game to remain similar to the original while helping out classes that fall too low.
And the only class that fell too low was ret, which was the only class stuck with the DPS output of the explicitly listed non-viable specs that they weren’t going to try to fix because of alternative viable options.
And they buffed ret to the worst DPS of the PvE specs at the time. It isn’t until ICC with a powerful set bonus, broken trinket, and a legendary that ret is among the best DPS specs when ditching their best defensive utility.
People survived just fine in original wrath with ret being one of the better DPS specs in icecrown. New optimizations in other classes left ret in the dust though, so these balance changes do more to preserve the old meta than to create a new one.
Too low was below Fury, which is why Feral also was buffed. Can you guess why it was below Fury? The devs laid out why it was below Fury, I have a feeling you know but don’t want to say it. We’ll see what happens I guess.
By like 1000 DPS, along with the rest of the non-viable specs, many of those were even starting to beat ret.
Fury was at the bottom of the viable DPS, so it was a reasonable target for where to buff to. Fury was going to naturally reach top DPS status later, which it clearly is, so it didn’t get buffs.
Feral wasn’t buffed for being too low. Blizz was trying to fix their rotation and accidentally buffed the spec into the stratosphere. Then walked back plans to roll back the buffs when the player base melted down over the implementation of the nerf.
Your joking, right? Warriors tear up Locks hunter mages rogues ETC!!! Just stop!
Aggrend quote on Fight Club disc before leaving. dated 10/14/2022 " You guys know how wotlk is gonna go. in 2 tiers (or less if ulduar ilvl buff actually happens) you’ll be kings. patience friends. 2nd quote 2/3/2023 “You guys need to chill when like, ret beats you for like a week, then you’ll get some 252 and it’ll be fine.”
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Both of these things are true.
This thread is a symptom of much propaganda going on from rets trying to drum up theories and arguments on why they should get an orange over a 1st fury prio. Rets are going to be below well played furys on the meters.
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Which is shown in that list of expected dps doc I linked up above which is maintained by an administrator on the light club discord.
He’s kinda sucking at it if the only purpose is to prioritize Shadowmourne 
(no one prioritizes Shadowmourne exclusively on what the raid gains from it, it’s a loyalty/commitment thing)