Combat roles are usually what people think of when talking about “hybrids” in this game, as a defining term. In reality though, “hybrid” can apply to so much more than that. Literally every single class and spec in this game is a hybrid in some form. Just that it’s not always about their intended combat role.
There was some talk, about giving hunters a melee-option. Not a lot, but every now and then a new topic, or discussion within a topic, would adhere to the subject of melee gameplay and hunters. Ever since they started adding more fantasy-oriented and thematically defining abilities to each talent category in WotLK, there were a select few who brought up the idea. In most cases it went nowhere, the topic(s) usually “died” after a few replies or most of them came in the form of people who didn’t ever want something like that for the class.
He said in the video that he tried MM prior to SV and didn’t like it. Not getting into why, just, that’s what he said in the video.
I can only assume that he wanted to stick to playing as a hunter.
Not really sure why you bring this up. We’re talking about a decision he made back at the tail end of BC, going into WotLK. Back then, MM came with both an instant cast Aimed Shot + the top talent Chimaera Shot, which was also an instant cast. If I recall correctly, only Steady Shot + Volley required casting/channeling time.
As for what he’s saying about the current game, and how it compares to the past, very little of it actually makes sense, considering he’s literally talking against himself with much of it.
Survival is just fine the way it is, one of the best specs in the game with a high skill-cap and there is data to prove it. I don’t understand any angle to argue for three ranged dps specs. You have the beast master, the master marksman and the tarzan spear wielding dude. Anyone who still says stuff like “survival is the worst” is over the age of 35 confirmed.
Been saying this for 5 years. Just funny people try to pick apart arguments or talking points to stay in their reality on the warcraft forums of all places. When it comes down to it, its great blizzard shook things up and went with making probably the most fun spec in the game over being another shooting clone spec. If you don’t like it, just shut up and complain about not doing as well as the other classes like every other spurg here.
What data? The only data to look at is representation in end game content and melee Survival is famously doing extremely badly in that regard.
Why can’t they just make a ranged Survival with a high skill cap? People actually wanted multidotting and funnel cleaving out of it. Why does it need to be melee? Do you think being melee is a necessity for having a high skill cap?
What’s hard to understand? We used to have three ranged DPS specs. That made sense because the class was defined around use of ranged weapons so we had three specs building on that foundation. After all there are plenty of melee specs elsewhere in the game but Hunters are the only one using ranged weapons.
There’s also the fact that having a melee spec in a class that is otherwise ranged just cements the melee spec as the worst option for most people and we do actually have data to prove that. The spec’s entire identity is based on handicapping itself just to be a unique snowflake. That doesn’t make sense.
Completely destroyed a class’ pop in the process. I’d say that if it wasn’t for a “few good men” this class would have been completely discontinued and deleted, conserving devs’ time and resources.
According to himself from 2 years ago Survival in WotLK onwards was a fun and unique ranged spec that he stuck to because he hated Marksmanship, which must mean they were appreciably different despite both using ranged weapon.
And your videos from 2019/2020 where you say the literal opposite of this?
The videos where you not only agree with most of what we’ve been saying but also argue yourself that the class wasn’t really meant for those who wanted to play melee-specs…
Also
Metroid:
If you miss all these shots, then Marksman is pretty much your go-to. I mean, I don’t really care, all the specs were pretty much the same back in the day. It just depended on, especially in the WotLK-era, like, my god…
I only did Survival(in WotLK) because I wasn’t really enjoying Marksman, whenever I tried that. And, just something about Beast Mastery that didn’t work out with me because I think like everyone else was playing it and it didn’t feel right playing the same thing literally everyone else is playing.
So I decided “hey, let’s play Survival”. And I fell in love with the whole concept of Explosive Shot and Black Arrow and Snake Trap. I really enjoyed those abilities
How come, if they were so similar, especially in WotLK, that you did not like MM but fell in love with SV and the Explosive Shot + Black Arrow playstyle? + Snake Trap
Bicmex literally got rank 1 by a mile last season and still is right now on Survival. PvE is literally just number adjustments. The melee survival is the best thing Blizzard ever did to a spec in Wow and I’m glad it’s here to stay.
Survival is practically a ranged spec anyways LOL. It shows in this thread how many people tried it one time in Legion prepatch and then never tried it again. If you want a spec focused on two abilities then make a 4th spec for all anyone cares.
Survival is bad thread starter kit
Black Arrow
Explosive Shot
Literally that’s it, you guys want a spec around two abilities. Take Serpent Sting and plays marksman and enjoy ranged survival!
About the rest…I would argue that what you can see below is waaay more than just two abilities. Way more than just Explosive Shot and Black Arrow.
Core Abilities
[Cobra Shot] - Instant cast
A quick shot causing X Physical damage.
Generates 7 Focus.
[Explosive Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 2 charges
Fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 4 sec.
[Black Arrow] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 30 sec cooldown
Fire a shot infused with dark energy at the target, dealing Shadow damage over 12 sec.
The periodic damage-effect applied by Black Arrow can be stacked up to 3 times on the same enemy.
[Serpent Sting] - 15 Focus - Instant cast
Fire a shot that poisons your target, causing them to take Nature damage over 15 sec.
[Arcane Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast
A quick shot that causes X Arcane damage.
[Multi-Shot] - 40 Focus - Instant cast
Fires several missiles, hitting up to 5 targets within 8 yards of your current target for X Physical damage.
Multi-Shot applies Serpent Sting to all targets hit.
[Immolation Trap] - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
Hurls a fire trap to the target location that will burn the first enemy to approach for X Fire damage over 20 sec. Trap will exist for 1 min.
Class-wide abilities
[Kill Shot] - 10 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 1 Charge
You attempt to finish off a wounded target, dealing X Physical damage.
Only usable on enemies with less than 20% health.
Major Cooldown
[Munition Tactics] - 20 sec duration - 2 minute cooldown.
Increases your haste by X% and instantly triggers Lock & Load(Passive). When Explosive Shot is used during Munition Tactics, this resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.
Any time Explosive Shot deals damage to a target affected by Black Arrow, during Munition Tactics, this will cause the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow to spread to nearby enemies as well.
(This effect is replaced by a different passive effect when engaged in instanced PvP; If your Black Arrow is at any time dispelled or otherwise removed from an enemy target, this instantly resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.)
Mastery
[Mastery Bonus: Toxicology] - Increases all non-physical damage dealt by X%, based on Mastery.
Passive Effects
[Lone Wolf] - Increases your damage by 10% when you do not have an active pet.
[Lock and Load] - Periodic damage dealt by Black Arrow and Immolation Trap have a chance to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus and trigger no cooldown.
[Trap Mastery] - Tar Trap now slows approaching enemies by an additional X%, and the effect sticks to the enemy for 3 seconds after they have left the tar.
The trigger radius as well as the radius of the effect on your Tar Trap is increased by 25%.
Freezing Trap can now be triggered manually by the hunter once placed, causing it to form a fragile Ice Block that you can stand behind to protect yourself from frontal attacks until shattered. The ice block shatters after 8 seconds or once it has sustained enough damage.
Manually triggering it requires you to stand in close vicinity to the trap.
[Serpent’s Focus] - Using Cobra Shot several times in a row will increase the amount of Focus generated by each shot by 4. Stacking up to 3 times.
[Serpent Spread] - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 9 sec of it’s duration.
[Exotic Munitions] - Your Auto Attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of either Serpent Sting, Black Arrow or Immolation Trap by 5 seconds, on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.
Utility/defensives
Includes all other abilities, such as [Tar Trap][Frost Trap][Aspect of the Turtle][Concussive Shot][Counter Shot][Tranquilizing Shot][Misdirection][Pet Utility][Exhilaration][Disengage][Feign Death], and more.
Note that I would prefer if(on a class-wide basis)
[Posthaste] - becomes a baseline effect. [Master’s Call] - becomes a baseline ability again. [Pet Specializations] - Ferocity, Tenacity, and Cunning, if they were changeable again. [Revive Pet] - Cast time brought down to 2 seconds again. [Camouflage] - becomes a baseline ability again.
Talents
– Level 15 –
[Ever Burning] - If you fire Explosive Shot into an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the remaining duration of the previous charge is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds.
An active charge can only have a max duration of 9 seconds.
Exotic Munition-procs now also increases the remaining duration of any active Explosive Shot charges you have on the current target by 3 seconds.
[Noxious Stings] - Increases the periodic critical damage of your Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrow by 25%, and Serpent Sting now deals increased damage against targets below 30% health.
[Fusion Shot] - (Replaces Cobra Shot) - 1.5s cast time(castable while moving) - 6 sec recharge - 2 Charges
Fire a charged shot into the target, dealing Physical damage.
When your next ability that deals periodic damage hits the target, this triggers a volatile fusion immediately causing it to erupt dealing additional instant damage equal to 40% of it’s total duration. The target will take additional damage of the same type as the ability used to trigger the fusion for the next 12 sec.
Generates 25 Focus.
– Level 25 –
[Death Adder] - Serpent Sting also does instant damage equal to 30% of it’s total periodic effect. Also applies to Serpent Spread(Passive).
Every time Serpent Sting deals damage, you have a chance to gain 3 Focus.
If the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” procs while your Serpent Sting is active on the target, this also triggers the Death Adder-effect.
[Predator] - Casting Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, or Multi-Shot reduces the Focus cost and increases the damage of your next Arcane Shot by 30%. This effect stacks.
[Viper Venom] - Whenever Serpent Sting deals damage, there’s a chance that this can cause any other periodic damage effects you have applied to the target to instantly deal damage equal to one tick of their total effect.
If this proc occurs when the target is affected by Black Arrow, this will instantly refresh it’s remaining duration and restore 8 Focus back to you.
– Level 30 –
[Trailblazer] - [Natural Mending]
[Bestial Dicipline] - (Replaces Camouflage as a talent choice) - While your pet is active, you and your pet(s) regenerate X% of total health every 3 sec. Healing done to you and your pet(s) is increased by X%.
Damage taken by your pet(s) is reduced by 15%.
When Lone Wolf(Passive) is active, you continue to heal for the same amount of health.
– Level 35 –
[Cluster Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 15 sec cooldown.
Fire a shot which explodes on impact, instantly dealing Physical damage to the primary target and all other nearby enemies, and causing them to bleed for an additional X Physical damage over 3 sec.
Explosive Shot-charges which are still active on any target(s) hit by Cluster Shot will instantly erupt, dealing all remaining damage to the affected target(s) at once.
[Wildfire] - 8 sec duration
The periodic damage effect applied by Immolation Trap will now spread to any enemy standing in close range to an already burning target. As long as an enemy is within range of another enemy affected by Wildfire or Immolation Trap, the Wildfire will continue to spread.
[T.N.T.] - Explosive Shot now deals damage to all enemies near the affected target.
– Level 40 –
[Born to be Wild] - [Binding Shot]
[Adaption] - (Replaces Posthaste as a talent choice) Getting hit with an incapacitating effect(Stun/Fear), reduces the remaining cooldown of your Aspect of the Turtle by 30%. This effect has an internal cooldown of X sec.
Aspect of the Turtle is now usable when incapacitated.
When rooted or slowed, the remaining cooldown of Aspect of the Cheetah is reduced by 15 seconds. Aspect of the Cheetah frees you from movement impairing effects and you cannot be slowed below 100% movement speed while it’s active.
– Level 45 –
[Spitting Cobra] - Cobra Shot now deals an additional X% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec.
Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.
[Exothermia] (Requires talent: Fusion Shot)
Increases your critical strike chance against any enemy you hit with Fusion Shot by X% for 12 sec. Dealing Fire damage to the target extends this effect even further.
Fusion Shot generates an additonal 10 Focus over 5 sec.
[Pre-Heat] - The cooldown of Immolation Trap is reduced by 5 seconds every time Immolation Trap deals critical damage to the enemy target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Immolation Trap, it’s cooldown is reset.
[Intoxication] - Your ranged Auto Attacks have a chance to grant you 2 stacks of Intoxication. When Black Arrow is refreshed or when it expires from an enemy, you gain this effect as well.
Intoxication
When you use an ability that deals instant damage, it has a 100% chance to be a critical strike.
When you use an ability that deals periodic damage, damage caused by this ability is increased by an additional X%.
– Level 50 –
[Rapid Recuperation] - Damage caused by Explosive Shot have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.
Whenever Lock & Load procs, this causes the next Explosive Shot fired to have a 100% chance for each of it’s ticks to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.
Catalysis - Duration 10 sec.
Black Arrow increases any Fire-damage you deal to an enemy by X%.
In addition, Explosive Shot-charges granted by Lock & Load extend the remaining duration of Black Arrow by 1 second every time they deal damage to the affected target.
[Resourcefulness] - Reduces the cooldown of all traps and Black Arrow by 20%. Your Freezing Trap and Tar Trap both have a 100% chance to proc Lock & Load when triggered.
Freezing Trap when triggered manually can now withstand 100% more damage before shattering.
When an enemy breaks free from your Freezing Trap, they will take an additional 10% damage from all sources for the next X seconds.
Critical damage dealt by Immolation Trap is increased by X%.
Bonus effects/Bonus Traits
Got no good names for these traits/bonuses yet but…just wanted to add in some potential fun bonus effects that are spec specific. They can be tied to things such as Set Bonuses or something similar to Artifact Traits/Azerite Traits of the past.
(1)Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.
(2) When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc. It will grant you an additional bonus effect depending on which periodic damage-effect it benefits.
Serpent Sting - Until the current Serpent Sting debuff expires or is refreshed, every time it deals damage to the target, you instantly gain 3 Focus.
Black Arrow - The remaining cooldown of Black Arrow is instantly reset.
Immolation Trap - Your next Immolation Trap will deal an extra X% damage and will also have an increased X% chance to critically hit the affected target.
(3)Arcane Shot now triggers the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” when it hits an enemy target.
In a discussion about whether Survival should remain melee we generally aren’t interested in how competitive it is. It’s easy to make a spec competitive. It’s mostly a matter of tuning. It’s harder to make people like a spec. The fact that Survival is evidently this competitive yet still remains the game’s least popular specs only furthers the argument that it shouldn’t be melee.
Nevertheless, even though Survival is competitive in PvP now and especially in BFA where it was the only Hunter spec that was playable at high ratings, the spec’s peak performance in rated PvP was in fact in WoD when it was still a ranged spec.
Great! Then it shouldn’t matter if they just replace the weapon and the couple of melee abilities it still has, right? Since it’s already effectively ranged in PvP?
Well you just mentioned a 3rd in Serpent Sting so evidently it’s more than just two. As you can see from Ghorak’s outline we do want a more complex spec.
We don’t want ranged Survival of MoP/WoD in its exact form; that wouldn’t work because back then specs did not have unique talents. We want something based on it; something with the same utilitarian, resourceful theme with iconic abilities such as the three you mentioned plus an array of new, unique talents and anything from melee Survival that can still fit such as Wildfire Bomb. Personally I would actually have Wildfire Bomb instead of Black Arrow since it fits the theme of the spec better.
Yes and no. I think, yeah… kind of. They probably should to make the spec more attractive, but I would keep the melee abilities and preferably the weapon, for fantasy reasons… though a cosmetic weapon/spell effect would suffice.
I would keep Wing Clip and a cosmetic melee weapon. Anything else may be problematic.
For example if Raptor Strike still existed and were worth pressing then it would be optimal to stay in melee as any Hunter spec that had it, but if it weren’t worth pressing then there would be no reason for it to exist.
I think for me— just off the top of my head— I’d like a spec where raptor strike exists but is not necessary for DPS in most applications. Mongoose bite makes it viable and shares a row with chakrams.
Edit: or chakrams is baseline but improved chakrams shares a row with mongoose.