Right you were playing during vanilla when both sides were zerging or playing mixed offense/defense.
As for how TBC is relevant? Reinforcements showed horde they could get a near 100% win rate by playing scorched earth. That is what is happening now.
Horde beat Alliance premades by exploiting the fact they didn’t want to fight back…and most of the victories came from messing up the warmaster pally-pull…at that point it was no longer effectient for them to try and would AFK out. Beating Alliance premades had nothing to do with the map, just using cleaving, whirlwinding NPCs to wipe 40 people.
Lern2read. I said Classic. I meant Classic. Do you play classic? I am beginning to wonder. What I just described was the meta IN CLASSIC. How the game was played in TBC has had no bearing on why Horde is doing what they are doing now. It has everything to do with how the Alliance has approached the BG. Once the best players from the Alliance faction could no longer get sufficient HPH to remain in the BG DUE TO THE GAME TAKING TOO LONG win or lose, they left. Once they left, the skill gap in the BG is now too high to overcome a map that favors horde because the sides aren’t equally matched up. The map favors horde. The lack of skill is something you should take up with your alliance friends.
The truly hilarious thing about all of this though is that if alliance queued with their mains right now as a large group, they would steamroll horde because we have a boatload of alts rep grinding too. It just isn’t noticeable because the alliance has an even worse set of skilled players queuing up right now.
The meta in classic right now is horde play scorched earth, a strat the map allows them to do, while alliance get whatever rep they can then they stop queueing for alliance.
Horde could stop playing scorched earth, the BG could go back to a 50/50 win rate and horde queue times would go down. But that is a horde created problem at this point.
I suspect your experiences may have differed from mine. I didn’t join any premades at the start because I was in the midst of my epic mount farm and they wouldn’t let you in without one. Once I got in, I think I got maybe two weeks of premades in before it got shut down?
Anyway, I’d say I had roughly a 60% win rate. Most of the loses were because the leaders forced us to give up, but none of those were because we weren’t going to get the 6 minute win. It was always because the Horde turned the game by turtling at various points, wiping us at Drek, or stalling to the point where they made the call. For me, this never happened before the 30 minute mark was reached.
If the Horde turtled up at IBGY as we were running up, it was usually a much closer game. If they tried to fight in FoS, we usually got through to their keep. The only reason we got through is because there were dedicated teams of sacrificial mages who would stall so the rest could get through. This was the level of coordination it took to get by a Horde PUG. Half the time we got through to FWK, the other half we just ran into their IBGY team.
Anyway, I’m just relating to you my experiences, which say that map advantage is huge. I don’t really want to get into yet another argument about it though. I’ve had my share and there’s a plethora of other, reasonably objective posts out there detailing how and why the map favours Horde, using quantitative approaches.
We both seem to agree in what we want, ultimately, for AV, so I don’t think it serves our cause to detract from that by nitpicking too hard. I honestly wasn’t trying to crap on you above or anything, just offer that the map imbalance seems to be pretty well established at this point.
It gets old experiencing it- if reading it is enough to bother you then perhaps that should clue you in to why Alliance have left the BG almost entirely.
It’s also been supported by add ons that have win tracking, as numerous Alliance have posted the results after 100+ games, some with under 1% win rates. I’ve yet to see Horde show anything to prove otherwise.
Funny, you completely abandoned the TBC point (which you should because it was wrong).
But I digress. If you are suggesting that Horde should start rushing, then you clearly don’t know thing 1 about how HPH works on Horde side. With the long queues, it makes more sense to grind out a longer win that affords maximum HPH while weaving WSG / AB into the queue times. There is zero chance the Horde stop doing this and suggesting that as the fix is silly. It is just like suggesting that Alliance stop abusing instant queues so Blizzard wouldn’t take away their ability to form premade groups over discord. Guess what. They didn’t do that did they?
So please, come with viable solutions and statements or stop posting. Your same tired arguments on every single one of these threads are stale and uninformed. Whether due to ignorance feigned or otherwise, I don’t know.
You would be well aware then that there were multiple tiers of premades then. Facing the multiple helmets was the most common form of premades I faced… I’m assuming because they were winning in 6 minutes and churning through the queue. But i respect the fact that you recognize and understand that different people can have different experience.
First I specifically addressed TBC and why scorched earth was done then and why horde abondoned it.
Second Horde get better HPH with a 50/50 win rate and faster queues than they do with near 100 win rate and longer queues.
I don’t recall saying the 95% win rate was inaccurate. I recall saying that the reasons for that win rate are inaccurate. Alliance like to claim it is all map. It isn’t. It is partially the map. I would argue 60% map. The other aspect that few alliance ever broach is the lack of skill in the BG. Your good players aren’t in there. They haven’t been since premades were effectively killed. Horde rankers are still weaving it in. The combination sucks and leads to a 95%+ win rate on the horde side.
The devs should make changes. But that will only fix the map. It won’t bring your best players in. Only thing that does that is to increase the HPH that can be earned. But if they did that, of course Alliance players would whine and claim that’s another Horde advantage rather than the attempt to entice the Alliance players back.
First, you didn’t address how the fact that Horde did scorched earth in TBC has any relevance to the current meta. Did horde players look to the past to learn how to defeat the alliance? No. They freaking adapted to an exploit being used against them and even that adaptation was far from perfect. If we won 30% of games at that time we were lucky.
Second, Horde do not get better HPH with 50/50 games because the queues are never going to be anywhere close to fast enough to justify that kind of change. The queues would have to be like 10 minutes Horde side to justify zerging and those types of queues haven’t happened since the 2nd week AV was out. So please, move on with this argument. It is trash. Horde weaving AB / WSG into the longer AV queue and getting near 100% wins is better HPH than having 30 minute queues for AV and not being able to weave AB / WSG. That’s simple math.
Scorched Earth is the current horde meta.
It would help, but with alliance spawning at their starting cave when SPGY is lost, that whole dynamic doesn’t do anything. Alliance are now on the wrong side of the bridge too, have to swap in their trinket and wait 30 seconds to recall. By that time, the bridge question is moot.
In a zerg game even the losing team gets a very good chunk of honor and rep.
And horde were not losing almost all their games.
I can’t tell if you are intentionally being dense or it just comes naturally. It doesn’t matter what the current meta is. The fact that they did the same thing in TBC as they are doing now is irrelevant.
Did you actually just say Alliance plays AV for fun? You think losing almost 100% of the games is fun for us?
Be honest, I don’t know if you’re good or bad as a player but for this I’ll assume you’re a decent player that wants enjoyable pvp, fair matches, and to win. If you’re looking at AV right now, aware that you have no control over the other 39 players on your team, and you see a 95% loss rate. If every time you go into the BG it’s a steamroll with no honour gain, no fun, no chance of winning, and you never even get to the mid point on the map due to how it’s balanced- would you keep playing?
The answer most players will give is no, especially with two alternatives that are almost completely balanced, that you know your faction wins half the games in.
Of course good players are going to leave a BG that is heavily slanted against them, there’s no logical reason to stay. You can say that the reason Alliance loses is because good players aren’t in the game, not because of map imbalance- but if they’re not in the game because of map imbalance, the reason still ends up being map imbalance.
Frankly, I think they should give everyone what they want and flip starting positions. Horde don’t seem to think the map matters, so it’d mean nothing to them if they started in the Alliance cave- Alliance feel like the map is everything, so it’s give them a chance to prove it.
If Alliance still can’t win with a flipped map that’ll just prove Horde right, if Alliance start winning games then it proves Alliance right. But for both factions it’d be a scenario that’d only prove bad for them if they’ve been wrong all along.
I agree with this. I think they should make the starting locations random and just go with it. And yeah, I am not suggesting I don’t understand why Alliance don’t queue up. I get it. I wouldn’t either. I honestly just want good games. I am not a ranker and have no interest in doing so.
Alliance can’t be bad, I’m Alliance.
I’m on the record saying that as long as there is a grave yard available, people should spawn there. But bythe same arguments people use to claim FYGY is unattackable should also concede that SPGY is too.