Good post and I agree.
When I said that not bringing a buff is likely irrelevant in content that scales up to thirty people I was assuming that all buffs would be covered just by the number of people there. Apologies- I should have been more clear.
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This is the biggest issue. People act as if DK has been some god all expansion when it hasn’t lol. Unholy has been upper middle for most and thats with a group supporting it which ALOT of players do not have.
If you took DH Dps and added the actual buff they bring to THEIR damage, or shadow and added pi damage. Or Ret got the damage from ret aura or windfury to shaman etc etc. DK would be nearly last for damage contributed to the raid and dungeon groups. (or damage prevented) It’s such a joke. Literally bring nothing to raid this expansion if you are not proging mythic fyrakk which 99.99999% of the population will never do.
I think some sort of defensive raid buff would be fine too we don’t need to bring damage if that’s what everyone is worried about.
Everyone gate keeping the raid buff knows this too lol. They all insta decline red nameplates in M+ group finder guaranteed. DK dps is ridiculously low represented in all group content even when they are tuned well for damage. Grip is not a raid BUFF.
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You were clear enough. I assumed all raid buffs were covered in my argumentation I was speaking to the idea of DKs competing for the last few spots that aren’t ‘required’ due to raid buffs and how in a pug world where most people run 15 man its just mathematically incorrect to take a DK unless one of the bosses is a Grip boss in which case you just take a BDK. Should have actively stated so in my post but It got lost between my head and my fingers somewhere.
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Utility is going to be situational. I think everyone could agree that saying things like DK brings nothing is a little disingenuous and I think that is what people take issue with.
Not everything is going to be useful all the time.
Of course. Thats why you should play with people at times and not take things so seriously. But people have spreadsheet the fun out of the game.
It does matter how you look at things. I look at this example explaining something like not having a main ability and not something like my car doesnt have a trailer hitch on it which would be more utility based. Everyone else has a trailer hitch, mine should too. It looks like check boxes being checked.
This comes back to the question of what is a buff in this whole thing? Is it something that you have to apply like horn of winter? Specific to doing more damage to the target? Does putting something up to lower the targets damage done to others count? Where is the line drawn that Insidious Chill isnt included? Just not powerful enough? Not what people want?
To me saying DK isnt the only class that doesnt bring something is extreme. Doesnt bring something that is worth it in the eyes of people chasing the meta? No, but it does bring something. Lowering a targets attack speed isnt that great in a raid or dungeon environment unless there is something like a frenzy mechanic or the boss auto attack damage is high.
I see people talking about how DK isnt godlike, but its not gutter trash either. You can make anything look good or worse. Like
Things like this dont actually help anything and you can spin anything if you want to.
People saying things like
arent helping things either. Just play the game. In most of the content doing this is just completely unnecessary and only contributes to a toxic gaming environment that drives people to quit. 9 times out of 10 you can invite randomly and be entirely fine. Nothing bad is going to happen, you get all your rewards and so on.
This is gamers optimizing the fun out of this game.
I’m not going to piecemeal your entire post, but the bottom line is that some people like to push themselves. Some people like to expand into harder content. Some people want to do (or attempt to do) the top level stuff. These people have to optimize as much as possible and will be playing with others that do the same.
If that content isn’t appealing to you that is perfectly ok. We each play the game our own way. However, it is the responsibility of the devs to ensure that each class is designed in such a way as to make them desirable to groups of other players. If they are going down the road of having different classes bring different buffs then they need to ensure that each class has one.
Shamans are a prime example. They were largely excluded from high end content (particularly M+) due to their lack of a group buff and lack of survivability. Guess what they got? A nice group buff and a new survivability totem. DKs need brought in line as well. The survivability is already there and now they need a group buff.
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I mostly raid heroic and Do keys around the 8-10 range. You absolutely can not invite randomly in any content I want to do.
Maybe in normal or M0 you can take who ever but why would you when you’re a busy adult and being selective will save you several minutes to hours of time?
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Thats fine, find like minded people, create a guild, like you are supposed to. Everything is viable in the top level stuff. There isnt a single piece of content that people should be excluded from if their gameplay is up to par. That is the reality.
There are 13 classes, DK had 5 different raid buffs, 1 that was from any spec and then the rest were spec specific with Frost having 2.
But group buffs arent created equal. Enhance did have a group buff but its uses were limited to certain classes. So just saying DK needs a group buff… what kind? Insidious Chill is a group buff through reducing the damage people take through slowing enemy auto attack speed.
So its not that DK doesnt have a raid buff, its not a good one or one people want. So what do you give them? Horn of Winter back as it was increasing strength and agility? Icy Talons applied to the raid which is limited, physical attack increase through Brittle that Frost also had? Abominations Might? Magic Damage increase from Ebon Plaguebringer?
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I think a leech buff would be both desirable and thematic. Many class buff focus on damage, but I think DKs would be better focused on survivability.
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So could Insidious Chill be changed to be better than an auto-attack slow since DK’s already have that?
The auto attack slow isn’t exclusive to DKs so its better to leave that one alone imo. DKs also have to talent into IC if they want it so its likely best to not make it mandatory.
Wouldnt a raid buff be a mandatory pick anyways? Im just looking at what we have that could be made better to fill the slot in. Insidious Chill kind of sucks because auto attack speed slow clearly doesnt cut it even though its technically a type of raid buff.
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i think people mostly don’t take it because its crap
But… thats exactly what I said. Insidious Chilld sucks. So why not make it an appealing raid buff? Its acting as a raid buff, so make it better.
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they’d probs have to rework it into something else since reducing auto attack speed is pretty niche. but there’s a lot of things they could do to give us a raid buff thats always valuable.
Exactly what im suggesting.
I remember when this game wasn’t just where people were used as a vehicle to do content at a higher or faster level…
Just sad reading this tbh. Says a lot about the state of the game and the players in it.
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Sadly, the old way of this mmo died a while back.
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Maybe theres some dks out there that wanna dps? Saying its ok to be the only class with no buff, because bdk is a good raid tank is goofy. And if you didnt know, m+ is a thing too.
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Do Demon Hunters have a raid buff?
theres darkness its a 15% chance to avoid all damage from a attack lasts 8 sec or 12 with the follow up talent or shorter cd