I thought the problem was that with M+ you could run dungeons all day and sooner or later you will get multiple wf/tf on those 430 pieces with no weekly timegate that will be as high as mythic raid gear.
But yeah I’m sure you’re right, people will still complain.
Only the most extreme players actually run those all day long. Those people are usually living off of twitch, pushing hard to get mdi ready/qualified or already mythic raiders looking to shore up bad luck.
The average key runner isn’t running 20-30 keys a day like the ones you see on twitch.
I’ve probably ran about 70 keys (burnout) so far this season on my main and have a 442 ilvl. I have slightly more gear than the mythic raider that is killing maybe 1-2 bosses in their guilds. But a full blow mythic raider is pushing 450 or is already there. Then I have to factor in that my gear isn’t always the right stats and while my ilvl seems high, I’d be better suited to drop a few ilvls and get the proper stats for my current spec.
I go 2-3 weeks sometimes without seeing an actual potential/upgrade even with titanforging.
So long as the systems interact with one another they certainly will. Those who talk about mythic+ invalidating heroic and under are absolutely right and have earned the ability to complain about it. That’s why I was hoping for separation so the progression path of raiding will remain in place, while allowing other parts of the game to do progression without being dictated by the smallest % of the community.
It isn’t balanced though. There are popular specs that don’t have any representation at that level, like any healer besides rdruid, warlocks, any melee besides havoc and rogue etc… They need to actually put effort into balancing higher keys if they want every spec to push.
yea but those teams are trying to go as fast as possible and completing dungeons in less than half the time required for those dungeons.
Doesnt mean any spec cant do those keys on live.
I have done a ML 19 in time with 2 casters and my self this season. I have a 22 FH timed with out a rogue and 2 ranged dps.
Neither of those are MDI comps.
Why does anyone complain about loot anymore with scaling is beyond me. This expansion is a mess thanks to azerite traits but ilvl doesn’t really matter.
Any activity that actually pits players in environments where having better gear matters(PvP) is scaled. When it comes to PvE, titanforged raid hero will always suck because he is itemized poorly or can’t even pull off his proper rotation and will always have bad DPS, terrible healing throughput or just be a garbage tank that seems to have armor like paper.
The problem with any of these systems is us the people behind the screens. We want to feel adequately rewaded for our time and effort and all these stupid systems upon systems of RNG titanforging, random legendaries, weekly PvE/PvP chests ,corruption( if the rumor of this system staying in shadowlands is true I’ll see you all in about 4 years if this game isn’t dead) are unrewarding mechanics period.
People with M+ gear do the same thing to PVPers mate.
M+ should have never rewarded the gear it does too. Another poorly thought out system brought over to WoW by the Diablo developers.
This right here…
As a former mythic raider, i could not disagree more with you on this part, their is a reason mythic guilds die left and right, as stated before, ton’s of good players just cannot commit to a raid schedule any longer and this is why i personally feel they should of went back to a 10/25 or even 10/20 format. I can’t tell you how many times we had attendance issues, mainly on progression bosses. We couldn’t kill argus because people just didn’t want to show up.
M+ is perfect for everyone, raiders, casuals, newbs, whatever. No time commitment, so it when you feel. You can even have your own personal group and work a schedule that way.
I do agree on different gear though, hoping they can do something like that next expansion, like certain bonuses but only works in dungeons or maybe even outdoors but not raid and same for raiding. I guess their is really no right or wrong at this point, both sides have many pros and cons. I just think if we were stuck at 430 gear, not many people are clearing a 15-20 key, regardless of how good they are, they just would not have the damage output.
No offense but this is a terrible comment. Prior to M+ their was literally nothing to do outside of raid. I raided for years, you know what i did? I only logged in on raid nights and never logged on for anything else, and if i did it was very rare, most guilds were the same way. With M+ people can push as high as they can go and it’s fun, take that away and they lose tons more people again. Mythic raiding has been dieing for years now, they needed something more to keep people subbed.
You run up to a +10 and get 430 gear standard. It’s scaled to the difficulty of the content. Above that had been stated to be simply a test of skill. M+ is a way to gear to a heroic level of raiding with a bonus of possible mythic raiding weekly drop From a chest.
TF needs to leave the game. The gamble upgrade out of a players control is complete garbage. If they’re going to allow upgrades again they need to be the valor system again of two point upgrades capped at +10.
M+ is such. Boring game mode.
They should just make challenging dungeons that aren’t all ruled by gimmicky affixes and timers.
On mythic raiding it should be removed. Make raiding two tiers normal and heroic.
Make heroic slightly more difficult and normal could stay the same or have a slight easier curve. Remove LFR difficulty but keep the queue system alive.
This way you have less variance and climb in iLvl per tier causing stats every expansion to get out of control.
LFR peopel would still be able to queue up for two - three boss wings at a time and promote people to actually play during the mode.
As stated in the post that was before the one you replied to, m+ players out of all people wanted tf gone the most, but we never asked to remove it and have blizzard replace it with literally nothing.
M+ is officially endorsed by blizzard in competitive tournaments. Thus high end m+ gearing deserves the same progression as gladiator pvp or mythic raiding.
It’s a joke that it’s endorsed as an “eSport”.
Participation is down across the board the entire expansion. A +10 being equal to heroic is acceptable.
I’d be down with promoting a plus 18-20 timed being equal to mythic raiding gear. Completing that would be equal to completing 20 man mythic IMO.
As someone that has raided cutting edge in the past, i have to say, 18-20 is def on par with end bosses but let’s be realistic, majority of mythic raids first 70% of bosses aside from this tier have been about on par with a 12 at the most. Most people have pugged majority of over 50% of mythic bosses and of those players, i would bet a small fraction could even complete a 15 key, much less an 18-20.
M+ you have to be on your A game in high keys, 1 missed interrupted, over pull and it’s a wipe. Mythic raiding generally has 1 direct wipe ability and dbm screams at you so it’s much more easily scripted then high keys. Sorry but Mythic is a joke outside of last couple bosses in every raid tier.
If you can complete a 15+ in time you’re pretty much on par with mythic raiders imo. In fact id go as far as to say you might even be a little better with higher keys. The higher the key goes the more tight execution gets.
This is where your arguments fall apart. Try finding a mythic guild that clears the conent every tier that DOESNT require you to run a 10 every week.
Ad hom attack.
because we need the gear to kill the bosses, because there are actually DPS checks, and if we don’t do enough damage, we wipe.
+10s are tuned at a heroic raid level. They don’t require mythic ilvl gear.
As it stands, high end raiding is in the worst state it has EVER been in. None of the loot that drops is BiS. There are no rewards, gameplay or otherwise, that we acutally get out of doing Mythic. Mythic raids these days are INCREDIBLY hard on the upper bosses, frequently taking over 100 wipes for the later bosses. Upper mythic is the hardest PvE gets, other than probably +17s in mythic plus. Guilds spend WEEKS to kill 1 boss. What happens when the bosses that require more effort than anything else in the game, drop worthless garbage gear? Players burn out, players quit.
You don’t spend 26+ hours in raid (not even counting the prep), week in week out, to kill a +10. You try grinding on fights like Mythic Guldan, or the last 3 fights in mythic Tomb of Sargaras and tell me that mythic raiders don’t deserve the best loot.
I don’t raid anymore specifically BECAUSE i got nothing out of raiding. The content is incredibly hard, takes an obscene amount of time, and I don’t feel compensated for my time spent in the raid, because I already need to overgear the bosses from M+ to even get them down in the first place. Blizzard is tuning these bosses so that most guilds, up until probably 80th percentiles across the whole raid, will need to overgear them before taking them down.
Upper mythic is harder than ANYTHING in the game. It deserves to have the best loot. M+ is designed for a 45 minutes yes or not clear. Upper mythic takes weeks of time for most guilds, in and out of raid.
Blizzard gearing as a whole is in a really bad state
Yes agreed!
Difference is you can spam the high keys all week for loot. You have multiple chances to farm dungeons at high keys for loot all week.
18-20 is on par with the last few bosses and should be the balancing point.
yea capping M+ gear at +20 and giving the +20 range mythic ilvl seems fair.
+10s just arent hard enough to justify being the best source of gear in the game.