Sira Moonwarden & becoming Forsaken

Community General Discussion
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While players will make subjective judgments on the story (which is fairly understandable - not everyone is equipped to be a literary critic) there are, to my mind, still certain right ways to structure the story.

One of the big mistakes sometimes made by authors (particularly inexperienced ones) is the hidden plot point. Your are writing your story, you get to a pivotal point, and suddenly a completely new and previously unmentioned character appears to rescue the hero/heroine or save the day. To most people, this will be an incredibly weak excuse for dramatic exposition and worse, it will seem like a cheat. Readers have expectations of how a story will progress, which the writer has built up over the work. To have someone not involved before become so important actually defines lazy writing.

I think that may be the core of the issue here. Not so much that an unknown character is involved, but an unknown factor. If there were reasons for their change of behaviour, then those reasons should have been more evident before. At least in my opinion.

:australia:

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Greymane came because the worgens were also sharing our home. He and his wife saved the last elven child from the tree. A problem I can’t understand that in the short story, we know that Elune acted for those who could not escape, so why didn’t she reach out and soothe the elves watching the tree burn?

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Though they really haven’t delved too deeply into the becoming forsaken thing, I do have some thoughts on the matter.

The Val’kyr upon raising an individual, reach out to the dead and draw them back to the land of the living. Sometimes (as with Sylvanas at Icecrown Citadel), they speak to the fallen. In the questline where you take a Val’kyr and raise dead night elves, there are times when it fails. I’d like to think that a hidden conversation is going on, where the Val’kyr whispers to the dead spirit and convinces them that they died because they were abandoned. That they were not already a wisp because Elune was no longer looking out for them.

The tragedy of course, is that once they are raised they are effectively cut off from Elune’s mercy and the spirits of the forest reject them completely. After giving in to the doubts and agreeing to be raised, there is no absolution left for them. Their god will not take them back now. They are completely lost, and have to convince themselves that aligning themselves with the Forsaken is the only path left to them.

(Have you ever seen someone make a bad decision and then fight to prove its validity, even in the face of all evidence that it was a terrible choice? Admitting that you were wrong in this case would be accepting Oblivion.)

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A lot of people have taken similar viewpoints about Elune, how the Night Elves should have expected Elune to step in and do something.

That would, frankly, be disastrous. You can’t have a god dropping down to interact with the world all the time because it is the ultimate Deux ex Machina. The idea of following any god or deity is to have faith, especially in dire times. Followers of the Light know that even if the Light does not save them, they will go to it when they pass on, if they believe. Without getting too much into religion, that’s the fundamental basis of faith. The fact that Elune empowered Tyrande as has happened is getting a bit too close to that to my mind but thankfully they did explain that in the past people trying the same thing generally don’t survive it.

:australia:

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I mean, again that’s Greymane… Someone who also resides and is more inclined to help the very people who opted to help him when he was in need His wife was in the tree as well. Anduin did nothing, nor did any other alliance that could have easily went to help them just like Greymane. And, with the soothing of Elune, it simply furthers the situation of Elune sitting by and not doing much for those who fought for everything and were simply abandoned.

It’s clear that’s the angle they’re using for Sira and Delaryn, as well as any other new Kaldorei Dark Ranger, in that they were “abandoned” and again, if they felt that way it’s because something in their eyes made them perceive it that way and feel that way. Something no one has control over and can’t tell them otherwise. To me it all doesn’t really make sense either, especially the fact that Elune opted to give them some sort of power gain after the tree burnt down, but who knows :woman_shrugging:.

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Except that’s not how everyone’s faith works. While I agree that we shouldn’t get too deep into the religious discussion, it is how some people work. The idea that some people have is that they feel, “Well if he’s watching over me why is my life so garbage.” idea. It’s a very valid feeling for that person if they choose to believe in such things, yada yada. You can’t tell them not to feel that way, it’s how they perceive things and how they opt to believe in things. And again, she’s made herself known plenty of times and intervened in things such as Val’sharah.

If these women prayed for something so they could help their people, literally anything which is what plenty of people might have done to their own deity, and they got nothing then there’s no one stopping them from feeling absolutely abandoned. Because, well…that’s how they took things, and how they felt in that moment.

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My question is where are the draenei? Logistically, they were closest to us and yet they have been MIA?

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A very valid question indeed. I believe that they perhaps decided not to help them. We see in the PDFs that Sylvanas purposely did that because if Anduin decided to send any help from the Alliance military (which would largely represent all races in that case) he would look bad to Greymane because he has yet to help them. Thus putting him in a bad position, which is exactly what she wanted, and is what is currently happening. Which, we see when Tyrande tells him to buzz off because she is asking for help and he will not give it to her.

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And again, it’s Greymane that lends help. I wonder if there will be a split with Worgens and Night Elves distancing themselves from the Alliance? That could really be interesting.

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It would, actually. I think that regardless of Greymane helping them, he would probably still be a bit upset with Anduin because he’s been wanting to try and take back Gilneas for ages, and didn’t get any help/has yet to get help from the alliance for ages now. So, if he so willingly helped the Night Elves (which they should, and needed to do) like good people it’d still seem a bit bad on their end. But, the internal conflict going on in the alliance that is slowly becoming more noticeable is actually super awesome to me, and I’m so far enjoying all of it.

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Well, they have conflict going on with Anduin, Tyrande and Genn, while the Horde have conflict goin with Saurfang and Sylvanas.

Lots of conflict, of undermining faiths and trusts. It is, indeed, interesting.

The game’s afoot, as Sherlock Holmes probably didn’t say…:upside_down_face:

:australia:

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You know Anduin and Genn had this discussion, I think it was in Before the Storm, where Anduin asked how he would feel if he helped the Night Elves, while having done nothing to retake Gilneas and Greymane got pissed off and said he didn’t know him, if he thought he would take offense to the Alliance helping the Night Elves, when the Night Elves helped them control their beast, gave them a home, shared everything with them. Anduin was relieved to hear it and Greymane asked him when did he get so smart and he said instead of practicing with a sword, he was reading. I’m paraphrasing but you get the idea.

I don’t have a lot of faith in Anduin. I know he has to grow into his role, but the learning curb is steep. I really miss Varian. I think things could have been really different with Varian around. Imagine if Illidan was still around. I know he’s only one demon hunter, but can you imagine our home destroyed and Illidan still on Azeroth, that would have been glorious.

Maybe the spaceship that isn’t being used for “reasons” can go pick him up lol

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Oh most definitely, I personally have never liked how they have written/made Anduin and have never seen him as someone who is fit for the throne. That’s just my own opinion though, but it’s definitely neat seeing everything explode in a political way, it adds to a very interesting story for the Alliance.

And I think that if Illidan was still around he’d most definitely help, especially if he knew his little lady lover Tyrande was around. I’m sure at that point they might have stood a way better chance with Malfurion, Illidan and his little DH followers, and Tyrande all running around with Greymane’s forces and Night elf forces. But, who knows :slight_smile:.

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So we should judge Wow’s storytelling by the storytelling of something completely different? That’s rather silly.

Also, she feels betrayed by a Goddess and two of her leaders, not her entire people. So it’s still pretty stupid that she joins forces with the people who are the real reason for all of those deaths and the destruction of her home and starts murdering the people she fought so hard to defend.

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Mm, not at all. Again, why would she want to be buddy buddy and working for the very people she felt abandoned by? They have every right to feel betrayed by those people, abandoned, left to die and are completely angry by it in the process. People act irrationally when they’re angry and blinded by this rage that is from what they feel is abandonment. They feel empty and alone, they probably don’t even care that they are essentially hurting all those other people in the process because of this. Not to mention, they’re leaders to those people, if they feel they’re leading them blindly and they decide to break away because of that then it’s their chose due to their experiences with those leaders.

Again, you can make these sorts of promises and goals as a Warden to always protect your people, but if you feel a specific way (and perhaps have felt this way for a long time, not just when the tree burnt down) then you’re going to react on those emotions regardless. Humanity at it’s finest, no matter what you are meant to do.

In addition, if the two storytelling are similar in concept, then it’s fine to compare the two because they’re similar.

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I’m kind of wondering if she has some kind of Mind Control powers over the undead like Arthas did. Something more subtle.

It’d make sense, since Arthas used the Val’kyr as well as Frostmourne to resurrect people, so the way she does it is very simuliar.

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She only feels betrayed by several of them, not the entire Night Elven race. Not enough reason to start murdering her own people. Not enough reason to suddenly being buddy buddy with the people who murdered her. It makes no logical story telling sense. Even if she turns her back on defending her people, then the only other logical sense is for her to go rogue to try and bring down the Forsaken on her own or by starting her own anti-Forsaken hate group.

You say humanity at it’s finest, but these are not humans we’re talking about here. You can’t judge them based on what a human would do. Mostly because Night Elves are simply more dedicated than humans are.

And the two stories are not at all that similar. Two completely different worlds, two completely different people, two completely different situations. I could list a lot of differences between the two, but I will go with the most important one. John Snow was murdered by his own people, Sira was not.

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The “evidence” is poorly presented and contrary to past precedent if you expect us to believe Sira and Delaryn are acting of their own free will. The idea they’re bitter against Elune/Tyrande isn’t the stretch. The stretch is how, without question or preamble, both simply follow Nathanos to join Sylvanas. Even buying the whole “being raised amplifies your negative emotions” bit - we can look to Sylvanas as a prime example of what to expect. Yes, she became angry and dark. What she DIDN’T do was willingly follow the Liche King and do whatever he wanted. She had to be under his control, and as soon as that control faltered, she began looking for ways to break free and eventually destroy him.

This shallowness and inconsistency is what makes it very bad, lazy writing and an unsatisfying story.

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But Arthas had frostmourne and Nerzul (spelling looks off on his name lol), so are the writers implying that azerite made her more like the lich king?

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Just because they are Night elves does not mean they do not have their own humanity inside of them. And, there’s no one stating that she isn’t going to state her own Anti-Forsaken group. There is one already existing in the Forsaken race already, and no one has yet seen if that is something that will later happen because the story just began. You can’t honestly expect the entire story be laid out in front of you and you be able to guess everything, then it’s not actually a good one because it won’t keep you guessing, and you’ll already know what’s happening.

And again, you know the saying one bad apple can quickly spoil the bunch? There’s several bad apples in her eyes, which can quickly spoil her view of the entire bunch. If you have been living for as long as they have, and if she has continued to feel a certain way that she might have felt during her life time, which is abandoned, she’d no longer feel inclined to serve or help those very people that abandoned her.

There’s no where in the world stopping from Sira opting to choose to side with the very people who raised her after she had felt abandoned by the people that practically let her die in the first place.