Well the other side never actively tried recruiting Fendral until the end with the Firelord. A big problem with figuring out why these people went nuts in the way they did is we do not know what the Val’kyr said to them on the border between life and death, nor what sort of subtle mind manipulation was used.
As usual I suspect we as the player base may of given this a lot more thought than the story team did, or even wanted us to.
Yeah, this is a good point. It goes back as far as the Forsaken - we are told that the reason they hate the living is because of how they were treated after they regained their freedom from the Lich King. I mean, it’s why they call themselves “Forsaken.” We get a bit of this outside of game, like in Before the Sotrm. But we seldom see this in game. In game, for the most part they seem like kind of jerks and it’s not surprising that they are treated with fear and suspicion.
This seems to be rapidly accelerated with Sira and Delaryn, who go instantly to “We are Forsaken” before anyone has had time to forsake them.
Does it count if they forsake their former selves?
Even immediately upon being raised they aren’t forsaken by the Night Elves:
And even after they have joined the Horde they still aren’t forsaken by the Night Elves, with the Alliance version of the Darkshore Warfront itself covering:
Maiev Shadowsong yells: This is your last warning, Sira. In Elune’s name, stand down!
And the Horde version covering:
Maiev Shadowsong yells: How can you side with the Horde, sister? How can you abandon justice?
I have a recollection of 9/11 when ever I see people question the credulity of Sira and Delaryn. It is a controversial thought. Perhaps it will be ignored. I am loathe to apply it to this discussion, but it feels relevant:
Not long after 9/11, I watched an episode of Bill O Rielly’s Factor Show on Fox News. When it was big. He had the son of a person who died in the Twin Towers as a guest.
But this “son of a victim” stated that his parent agreed with the imperialist/crusader-esque sentiments that the terrorist espoused as the USA’s policies.
What did Bill ORilley do? He cut off the son of a victim, and ridiculed him as incredulous and insulting to the memory of 9/11. Bill O Rielly presumed his understanding of human nature superceded an individual’s consideration. But maybe that kid knew his parent more than any logic we could presume. We will never know the truth.
The idea that people can disagree with their national leadership, be killed defending something they are not fond of, and be risen to gleefully oppose it, is something I can understand.
Interesting but ultimately this still doesn’t quite match the situation. The central problem still remains, which is that Sira/Delaryn while losing faith, do not die begrudgingly defending. They do not ever once in their lives give in to the other side, even at the low points of their faith. They die giving their all to defend their homes. Even if they lost faith, they never showed themselves to be in agreement with the side they were fighting really.
Yes, I agree. There should be some context to their defection, but there is none. I agree that is awful.
I just wanted to make the point that their actions can have logic. Immediately turning against the people you serve when given a chance can have an interesting story.
Blizzard seems to know this. They are either purposefully withholding it as an impactful plot point - or perhaps they hope it will be easily explained as they fling rule-of-cool ![:poop:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/poop.png?v=6" ":poop:")
at a wall, and divine reasons from the images.
Maybe Sira and Delaryn are less Kaldorei patriots and more horrible, horrible bigots, and they’re just projecting how they would feel about undead elves onto Elune.
They need to redirect that self-loathing, but it can’t be at the Undead because now THEY’RE undead, and these guys are that type of patriot that’s more about self-inflation by proxy than anything else. So instead, they just cast their bigotry back on the elves with this veneer or BETRAYAL as an excuse.
…this started as a joke but sounds serious on a reread. So uh. Here’s a clown emoji to show I’m being goofy. ![:clown_face:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/clown_face.png?v=6" ":clown_face:")
Let’s not pretend Fandral’s story was good or deserves to be precedent for anything.
This is a great deal of effort put in to analyze the slapdash story justification to let Horde roll Wardens in 9.0.
To be fair, the Undead Night Elves look way better than the playable Nightborne do, so that would at least be something out on all this mess.
And Arthas, Benedictus, Blackmoore, even Illidan, among others.
Honestly … what I want out of the Undead NEs is sort of irrational, but I was sort of hoping they would serve as a life-raft for the near extinct San’layn and those Dark Rangers with enough sense left to get off the Sylvanas ship while its sinking; and enough self awareness to realize that a woman they once forgave for creating them (solely because she was forced to by Arthas) should be DEEPLY concerned that she is now deliberately creating more of them out of the NEs.
Rather than being the slaves of the Undead Elves … I was sort of hoping they’d be their salvation.
I want the Undead Night Elves to get free of brainwashing and rejoin the living Night Elves, and somehow could have brought the Court of Farondis and remaining Black Rook Hold risen with them as well. Sadly, Farondis was ignored for Nazjatar as well. The Night Warrior’s powers could have been a good means to break Azshara’s curse, too.
Though, then again, the Night Warrior’s powers should have prevented the Night Elves from being raised as Undead in the first place.
There’s plenty of argument to say that Sylvannas’ covenant with the Forsaken doesn’t count for the enemies of the same. Derek and the Night Elves were enemies of the Horde when alive.
Lets be honest, the moment it was revealed in “Edge of Night” what Sylvanas really thought of “her people” … was the same moment any credence that she gave a crap about "Forsaken Free Will" went out the window. They were her “Arrows in her Quiver” … her “Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses”; ones she was fully willing to abandon when they fulfilled their role (at least till hell).
The Forsaken are objects, tools. Valuable yes, ones that Sylvie may care about in her own twisted way (immensely perhaps) … but at the end of the day, still tools. The will of tools is irrelevant, and just like “Before the Storm” showed us … that “Free Will” is only tolerated as long as it remains convenient for Sylvie’s purpose. If its not, then those tools lose their value.
Let’s be honest some more. Yes she fully admittd that she held that attitude right up to the point where Arthas died. She then killed herself and went through a post-life journey that radically altered her outlook.
Yeah, it instilled her with a existential fear of her own horrific eternity; and thus she realized she once again needed “her people”. They transitioned from her “Arrows in her Quiver” to her “Bulwark Against the Infinite” (or more specifically … her “Meat-shield Against her Afterlife”). People act like her expansion of the Forsaken in Cata was some great benefit to them (and yes … their people benefited from it), but by all indications it was merely her expanding the strength of her “Bulwark”.
She may care for her race in some warped way, but there is a reason it has ALWAYS been kept deliberately ambiguous as to HOW exactly she cares for them. Does she care for them more as people? As valuable tools? A mix of both, and to what degree? To what level is she willing to sacrifice for them? More importantly, how much does she expect them to sacrifice for her? These are questions with no answers … but through her own actions, there are at least hints.
I’d argue that it wasn’t to their benefit or at least it’s as much of a benefit as dying and being resurrected into undeath can be.
What joy is there in this curse?
Here I thought the Forsaken were all about extolling and praising those who are now undead, and then take revenge and plot against those who raised them against their will.
The parallel is there. Arthas tried to exterminate the undead that broke free because they wanted him dead, and he couldn’t control them.
Godfrey broke free, wanted Sylvanas dead, and utilized his free will. What did Sylvanas do?
Try to exterminate him.