Actually, it was his unwillingness to listen to anyone else, his failure to remain teachable which sealed his and their fate.
His unwillingness played a part. But it was certainly while pursuing their safety that he fell.
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His stubbornness and insane level of obsession was CORE to his fall. There was nothing wrong with him trying to protect his people but his mindset ensured that he’d take all the wrong steps in doing so.
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I didn’t say there was anything wrong with trying to protect his people. But it is a fact that he fell pursuing that. Without question.
Well, more he fell in pursuit of revenge against Mal’ganis for what he did to his people.
So Delaryn and Sira don’t even match up with Arthas in that regard.
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Which would be fine, it it wasnt one line and not just introduced in the Night Warrior scenario.
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Again, maybe in part. But he was going after Mal’ganis because he thought it would save them.
Amid the carnage, Arthas found Mal’Ganis. The dreadlord was eager to destroy the human, but that was not his purpose. He issued a challenge to the prince: come to Northrend and face him in a true battle. Then Mal’Ganis shrouded himself in magic and vanished from the city.
Arthas wasted no time in following. He believed if he could vanquish the dreadlord, he could shatter the Scourge and stop the plague of undeath forever. While fire still licked at the ruins of Stratholme, he gathered his followers and set sail for the frozen continent of Northrend.
Arthas didn’t give his troops a chance to rest. The Lich King told him that Mal’Ganis was somewhere among the undead. The prince believed that if he could find the dreadlord - if he could kill him - then he would save Lordaeron. Arthas rallied his soldiers and launched a counterattack. Casualties soared among the humans, but the prince ignored the losses. He forged onward until he had found Mal’Ganis.
That’s pretty funny.
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That part is also what makes Sira and Delayrn not match up to the writing given to Arthas. From the final chapter of the Scourge of Lordaeron campaign in Warcraft III, “Frostmourne”:
- Muradin Bronzebeard: You lied to your men and betrayed the mercenaries who fought for you. What's happening to you, Arthas? Is vengeance all that's important to you?
Arthas: Spare me, Muradin. You weren’t there to see what Mal’Ganis did to my homeland.
Mal’Ganis: So, you’ve taken up Frostmourne at the expense of your comrades’ lives, just as the Dark Lord said you would. You’re stronger than I thought.
Arthas: You waste your breath, Mal’Ganis. I heed only the voice of Frostmourne now.
Mal’Ganis: You hear the voice of the Dark Lord. He whispers to you through the blade you wield. What does he say, young human? What does the Dark Lord of the Dead tell you now?
Arthas: He tells me that the time for my vengeance has come.
Sire and Delaryn don’t seek vengeance against Sylvanas and the Horde for what they did, not like Sylvanas against Arthas, and not like Arthas against Mal’ganis. They joined their enemy.
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I don’t think they are perfect parallels. (This was actually in response to the idea of them rewriting Sylvanas as being willing to join the Scourge.) But just that someone whose main goal is protecting their people can still end up becoming their people’s greatest enemy.
Sure, but in both the cases of Arthas and Sylvanas that involved mind control, while with Sira and Delaryn that supposedly did not.
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You know, the reason it worked with Arthas was because we saw his fall happening in real time. We saw his desperation as the situation in Lordaeron got progressively worse and worse, and we saw him get corrupted, his soul devoured by Frostmourne in the end.
Sira and Delaryn? None of that.
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Yeah. What Drahliana and Imerus are missing is that the natural progression of the scenario they present would result in something like this:
The Night Elves have won, Tyrande is triumphant and about to deliver the final blow to Sylvanas/Nathanos. At this moment, Sira/Delaryn strike out from the shadows, completely out of left field and they end up killing both Tyrande and Sylvanas.
You’d go rogue if you lost faith in Tyrande, her government and her goddess. You. Wouldn’t. Kill. Your. Own. Who. You. Died. Defending.
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At the very minimum, you wouldn’t join the side that killed you.
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Pretty much. TBH, I am sort of hoping that Blizz is just lying about the brainwashing thing to try to preserve some REALLY predictable “twist” (where its revealed she not only betrayed the Horde, but the Forsaken in some unbelievably fundamental way). Its part of the reason I think Velonara is getting her own little side story in SM, because Blizz is liable to try to start distancing some of her less devoted Dark Rangers from Sylvanas (to preserve them as well).
Bluntly, “alteration of wills with the Val’kyr” makes TOO much sense when it comes to these NEs with Sylvie’s MO. We KNOW Val’kyr (in general) are capable of exercising a MASSIVE amount of control over the physical and mental conditions of those they resurrect. We ALSO know that Sylvie spent the better part of THREE expansions torturing and researching Koltira Deathweaver to find a way to result in this VERY type of thing (the manipulation of will to make it more convenient for her). That R&D would also explain how she can resurrect elves.
But … I guess we’ll see…
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That’s an epic, goddess-tier level Stockholm Syndrome.
Also, thanks for a host of well-written posts in this thread, and the OP for starting it.
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I rarely post on the story forums but read them practically everyday. Seeing the Tyrande thread about how she had her vengeance and doing the warfront on the horde again recently reminded me of just how much I hate these two.
I have zero problems with tragic stories so long as they are well written. I could totally buy into a story of a rogue branch of undead night elves who hated Elune for not being there in their time of need, that would actually be pretty awesome.
What we have gotten is an insult to people who love night elven lore and the already screwed over horde playerbase. Night elves have already had it super rough for awhile now but BFA is way too far. The horde doesn’t need two random edgy elf teens leading them into battle.
So, again, it’s dumb and I hate it.
Edit: Phone decided to rename Elune.
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Delaryn … eh. I can take or leave her.
But I like Sira. She might have a dubious story, but she’s here, and I like killing Alliance by her side.
As a Horde player, she seems to address us as a comrade. When she is speaking to us, she is earnest. Almost friendly… In an Undead Warden who lost faith in Elune sort of way.
Then on the field, she hurls vitriol at the Alliance and seeks their destruction.
Maiev is like the cool toy you ask your parents for, and Sira is like the lamer knock off they end up buying for half the price.
I would have been happier if Sira outright blamed Tyrande for harboring Genn and his Worgen after they provoked the Horde at Stormheim. If Sira disagreed with the Night Elves membership with the Alliance. If Sira said Tyrande and the Alliance must be destroyed for their inept leadership, and the Horde is the best way to do it. But even without a good reason, she is still fun to run around with.
I find it strange everyone just up and trusts Sira in universe. They should shun her even more than we do. Who would buy a Night Elf turning around after Teldrassil and serving the Forsaken? That just sounds like a spy or saboteur to me.
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As others have said - I hoped Sira, Delaryn, and the risen Night Elves would turn out to be Sylvanas’s Banshees who simply possessed the Night Elves bodies as they died. That would explain their loyalty.
It would be a nice touch of psychological warfare if Sylvanas and Nathanos plotted that to confuse the Night Elves, and make them feel despair.
But that ship seems to have sailed.
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