06/14/2018 03:25 PMPosted by PellexOkay, so BtS!Sylvanas is also a control freak. Would you say this is new, or have we seen it before? If so, when and where?
To the extreme of the novel? Not sure.
To the extreme of the novel? Not sure.
She's always been in positions of command, so that's difficult to say. However, I will say we don't see her micromanaging much. She tends to delegate tasks to subordinates, and takes a bigger-picture approach to leading. I don't think we've ever seen her so harshly and minutely dictate the individual details of people's unlives prior to BtS.06/14/2018 03:25 PMPosted by PellexOkay, so BtS!Sylvanas is also a control freak. Would you say this is new, or have we seen it before? If so, when and where?
If anything, maybe she was too trusting. She’s been betrayed or disobeyed a lot.
I think that's definitely fair.06/14/2018 03:37 PMPosted by ArlifrexIf anything, maybe she was too trusting. She’s been betrayed or disobeyed a lot.
But, as with Voss, while this development in her is believable given her history, we're not shown any kind of transition. She's just kind of...like this now. I'm mainly speaking towards the excessive paranoia and micro-control she exhibited in BtS.
Before now, she didn't really give a !@#$ who you were, where you came from, what you did, or what you called yourself. So long as you did your job and did it well. The Forsaken were a militaristic dictatorship (outwardly resembling a monarchy), wherein your position was awarded based on merit.
But we've never seen them as an Orwellian Fascist state with such a paranoid delusional tyrant for a leader as we have in this book.
06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by TienzanThat isn't exactly true. In Vanilla several Forsaken fled to the Dalaran crater to seek asylum among the Kirin Tor and brought dire news about the going ons within the Undercity. These Forsaken where then had a hit put on them.
I disagree, as each of these situations has context beyond the concern for loyalty. The issue with Kegan Darkmar and his comrads focuses much less on his fleeing of Undercity and much more of his theft of the Bloodstone relics.
I don't think we can use this as a good standard to measure if Sylvanas demanded 100% loyalty, because it is tainted with the added context of the theft. Kegan wasn't just someone who left the Forsaken. He's someone who stole very valuable objects from them. And Magus Wordeen Voidglare puts much more emphasis on the theft than he does the betrayal.
06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by TienzanInstances in where Forsaken openly rebelled against Sylvanas' government were murdered. In the starting area the rotbrains were put down for defying their benefactor.
This isn't a good example either, because from what information we know, the Forsaken were more than willing to let the Rotbrains be in complete peace until they learned they were mobilizing for an attack.
Voss never joined the Forsaken either (not until now anyway) and she was never attacked.
So with the Rotbrains, it wasn't the fact that they didn't join the Forsaken that doomed them. It was that, in their madness, they became aggressive. The message of Deathknell is very much "Serve, Die, or Leave".
06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by TienzanAs Silverpine questing showed she started going to the extremes and using risen humans to kill their former allies in what Blizzard described as a rage stage which newly risen under duress.
And even then, these Forsaken are given the same choice as the others. They are not forced to serve the Forsaken when they come to their senses. Though I suppose the option to leave may be rescinded from those raised in such a manor. In that, we agree. These Forsaken are free to agree, but not leave, as there would be far too great a chance they would turn against them.
06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by TienzanThis again happened in Western Plaguelands questing. Her need to control Koltira and using newly risen and forcing her will in order to win the war was paramount. This only evolved.
But I can't agree with this either. The situation with Koltira had less to do with her needing to control, and more to do with his absolute disregard towards his duty.
It'd have more of a point if Koltira's actions weren't such a detriment to the Forsaken's efforts in Andorhal, if his only crime was disloyalty to Sylvanas. But his direct inaction nearly lost them the entire fight and cost the lives of good dead men. It wasn't as simple as Koltira not doing what Sylvanas wanted.
So again, this example is tainted by added context. And I don't believe it can be used as a good standard of measurement.
Either way, my final thoughts, I'll reiterate what I said before.
It makes sense for her to expect loyalty from her people. But the idea that they must be 100% fanatically loyal is new
I'm not stating that Sylvanas didn't expect loyalty from her people. It makes perfect sense to not allow your people to defect to enemy groups, or to work to your people's detriment.
But there's a difference between the standard expectation of loyalty, and the 100% zealous loyalty that she expects in BtS. To the point that she has her own people killed on the SLIGHTEST off chance that they may not bee 100% absolutely fanatical to her.
Just look at the examples you provided. We went from killing Forsaken who had defected and had stolen incredibly valuable artifacts (Thus, actual traitors), to killing Forsaken for the slightest hint of disloyalty, despite never actually committing a crime.
This fanaticism is new. And if this is their intended growth of character, it's terrible. Because I've never been as unmotivated as I am now to play my favorite race.
I also think her characterization has changed a lot.
I used to think she actually valued the lives of the Forsaken, and was actually invested in their continued survival and prosperity.
When she was made Warchief, I had hoped that her character was developing, and that value of the Forsaken would have spread to include the entirety of the Horde. Still felt that way with the BFA cinematic. I didn't really have a problem with her doing terrible things, as long as they were all directed at the Alliance and it was for the benefit of the Horde.
Unfortunately, as more information about BFA's actual content and the BtS novel, that doesn't seem to be the case. I realize it's cliche, but she really DOES feel like Garrosh 2.0. She's been shown to not really care about the rest of the Horde, she apparently mistreats the Forsaken, and everything she's doing seems to only be to benefit herself.
Now maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention, and she was always this way, but to me this characterization seems inconsistent with the one she had up until this point.
I used to think she actually valued the lives of the Forsaken, and was actually invested in their continued survival and prosperity.
When she was made Warchief, I had hoped that her character was developing, and that value of the Forsaken would have spread to include the entirety of the Horde. Still felt that way with the BFA cinematic. I didn't really have a problem with her doing terrible things, as long as they were all directed at the Alliance and it was for the benefit of the Horde.
Unfortunately, as more information about BFA's actual content and the BtS novel, that doesn't seem to be the case. I realize it's cliche, but she really DOES feel like Garrosh 2.0. She's been shown to not really care about the rest of the Horde, she apparently mistreats the Forsaken, and everything she's doing seems to only be to benefit herself.
Now maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention, and she was always this way, but to me this characterization seems inconsistent with the one she had up until this point.
06/14/2018 03:34 PMPosted by SamariyuShe's always been in positions of command, so that's difficult to say. However, I will say we don't see her micromanaging much. She tends to delegate tasks to subordinates, and takes a bigger-picture approach to leading. I don't think we've ever seen her so harshly and minutely dictate the individual details of people's unlives prior to BtS.06/14/2018 03:25 PMPosted by PellexOkay, so BtS!Sylvanas is also a control freak. Would you say this is new, or have we seen it before? If so, when and where?
It's not just the micromanaging; it's the way she panics and goes ballistic at the slightest hint of events getting beyond her control. I don't remember her needing to grip that tightly before.
These are the things that frustrate me most about people saying she's no different. I hear things like "She's always been paranoid," "She's always been controlling," and "She's always been agitating for war," even from people who make a habit of delving into the lore (some YouTubers, for example). I honestly think a lot of players have just always hated her--which is fine; people don't have to like her--but didn't really think about her characterization and just assumed she had every negative aspect in the book.
06/13/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Pellex06/13/2018 07:57 AMPosted by Threeslotbag3. At the end of Wrath, Blizz had to vastly change (wreck) her character for gameplay reasons since her stated life plan was "The Forsaken are going to get revenge on Arthas, and then kill ourselves".
I get that, but I don't remember her saying anything positive about the state of undeath at that time. When did she start talking/having internal monologues about undeath as an advantage, or about freeing people from the pains of life?
She used to say "What joy is there in this curse" when you clicked her. Idk if she still does but there you go.
According to BTS and presumably Varimathras, since at the bare minimum, WotLK. Raiding Stormwind to turn them all Forsaken has been a long term plan if Varimathras is aware of it: ... When... the shattered mask hangs above your hearth, only then you will know. And it will be too late.06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
06/16/2018 04:20 PMPosted by TrengAccording to BTS and presumably Varimathras, since at the bare minimum, WotLK. Raiding Stormwind to turn them all Forsaken has been a long term plan if Varimathras is aware of it: ... When... the shattered mask hangs above your hearth, only then you will know. And it will be too late.06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
No, I mean when was the first time this ambition was mentioned? Not when did the character start thinking about it, but when did it become established as part of her character?
oh idk this is new stuff to me. as far as i knew sylvanas just wanted to take a flying leap after arthas died.06/16/2018 05:42 PMPosted by Pellex06/16/2018 04:20 PMPosted by Treng... According to BTS and presumably Varimathras, since at the bare minimum, WotLK. Raiding Stormwind to turn them all Forsaken has been a long term plan if Varimathras is aware of it: ... When... the shattered mask hangs above your hearth, only then you will know. And it will be too late.
No, I mean when was the first time this ambition was mentioned? Not when did the character start thinking about it, but when did it become established as part of her character?
06/14/2018 03:27 PMPosted by Arlifrex06/14/2018 03:25 PMPosted by PellexOkay, so BtS!Sylvanas is also a control freak. Would you say this is new, or have we seen it before? If so, when and where?
To the extreme of the novel? Not sure.
Im assuming it’s only recently. BtS does mention how she prefers working behind the scenes in the shadows.
And when you are working in the shadows, you can’t be directly in control as the way she was portrayed in the book.
So I’d say only since she’s become warchief and can no longer stay in the shadows.
06/19/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Pellexi could see sylvanas doing this for absolute control, but just because it's within the realm of possibility doesn't mean that you do something that alienates your players.
Sylvanas wasn't a control freak before this book either, at least as far as I can tell. (If you know of an earlier example, please contribute to my thread tracing Sylvanas's change of personality: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20764998070 ).
the prologue. read the way she reacts to nathanos informing her of the desolate council.
Now she says "What JOY there is in this curse!" Same phrase, but completely different inflection.06/14/2018 09:11 PMPosted by NichtgutShe used to say "What joy is there in this curse" when you clicked her. Idk if she still does but there you go.
The prologue was in the book he's talking about tho...06/19/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Pellex...
Sylvanas wasn't a control freak before this book either, at least as far as I can tell. (If you know of an earlier example, please contribute to my thread tracing Sylvanas's change of personality: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20764998070 ).
the prologue. read the way she reacts to nathanos informing her of the desolate council.
I remember her wanting to kill people in Stormwind and raise them. She references doing that to "the people of Stormwind", I'm not sure she wants to systematically kill them all, let alone all humans.
Sylvanas has always been untrusting and suspicious. Whether her actions rise to paranoia is in the eye of the beholder. As to obedience, being untrusting and suspicious, she has trouble seeing disobedience as anything other than a move against her.
I don't know that she believes living is better than life or simply believes that to long for life is to endure pain.
Sylvanas has always been untrusting and suspicious. Whether her actions rise to paranoia is in the eye of the beholder. As to obedience, being untrusting and suspicious, she has trouble seeing disobedience as anything other than a move against her.
I don't know that she believes living is better than life or simply believes that to long for life is to endure pain.
06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by TienzanThat isn't exactly true. In Vanilla several Forsaken fled to the Dalaran crater to seek asylum among the Kirin Tor and brought dire news about the going ons within the Undercity. These Forsaken where then had a hit put on them.
I disagree, as each of these situations has context beyond the concern for loyalty. The issue with Kegan Darkmar and his comrads focuses much less on his fleeing of Undercity and much more of his theft of the Bloodstone relics.
I don't think we can use this as a good standard to measure if Sylvanas demanded 100% loyalty, because it is tainted with the added context of the theft. Kegan wasn't just someone who left the Forsaken. He's someone who stole very valuable objects from them. And Magus Wordeen Voidglare puts much more emphasis on the theft than he does the betrayal.06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by TienzanInstances in where Forsaken openly rebelled against Sylvanas' government were murdered. In the starting area the rotbrains were put down for defying their benefactor.
This isn't a good example either, because from what information we know, the Forsaken were more than willing to let the Rotbrains be in complete peace until they learned they were mobilizing for an attack.
Voss never joined the Forsaken either (not until now anyway) and she was never attacked.
So with the Rotbrains, it wasn't the fact that they didn't join the Forsaken that doomed them. It was that, in their madness, they became aggressive. The message of Deathknell is very much "Serve, Die, or Leave".06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by TienzanAs Silverpine questing showed she started going to the extremes and using risen humans to kill their former allies in what Blizzard described as a rage stage which newly risen under duress.
And even then, these Forsaken are given the same choice as the others. They are not forced to serve the Forsaken when they come to their senses. Though I suppose the option to leave may be rescinded from those raised in such a manor. In that, we agree. These Forsaken are free to agree, but not leave, as there would be far too great a chance they would turn against them.06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by TienzanThis again happened in Western Plaguelands questing. Her need to control Koltira and using newly risen and forcing her will in order to win the war was paramount. This only evolved.
But I can't agree with this either. The situation with Koltira had less to do with her needing to control, and more to do with his absolute disregard towards his duty.
It'd have more of a point if Koltira's actions weren't such a detriment to the Forsaken's efforts in Andorhal, if his only crime was disloyalty to Sylvanas. But his direct inaction nearly lost them the entire fight and cost the lives of good dead men. It wasn't as simple as Koltira not doing what Sylvanas wanted.
So again, this example is tainted by added context. And I don't believe it can be used as a good standard of measurement.
Either way, my final thoughts, I'll reiterate what I said before.It makes sense for her to expect loyalty from her people. But the idea that they must be 100% fanatically loyal is new
I'm not stating that Sylvanas didn't expect loyalty from her people. It makes perfect sense to not allow your people to defect to enemy groups, or to work to your people's detriment.
But there's a difference between the standard expectation of loyalty, and the 100% zealous loyalty that she expects in BtS. To the point that she has her own people killed on the SLIGHTEST off chance that they may not bee 100% absolutely fanatical to her.
Just look at the examples you provided. We went from killing Forsaken who had defected and had stolen incredibly valuable artifacts (Thus, actual traitors), to killing Forsaken for the slightest hint of disloyalty, despite never actually committing a crime.
This fanaticism is new. And if this is their intended growth of character, it's terrible. Because I've never been as unmotivated as I am now to play my favorite race.
So basically your argument, as most Horde partisans, is that Sylvanas is always in the right and even the lore which shows her descent into obsessions with loyalty are all without merit. Not one incident prior to BTS is valid. Years of documented betrayals from Varimathras, Putress, Lord Godfrey and Koltira have done nothing to skew her opinions to more extreme views?
See this is why I can't take you seriously and anybody who agrees with you. How can you with all the evidence of the Forsaken narrative showing Sylvanas giving "Sophie's choices" to new risen undead. You say because they get a Sophie's choice that they're free will is intact when many agree to submit out of duress and fear? This is what the Horde has become. A faction that can't accept the narrative and moreso the linear descent of one of their most popular leaders into paranoia?
This is what you're defending. Look up Sophie's choice. A choice isn't a choice if the outcomes is the desolation and loss of the other option. Where freedom is an illusion and the only choice is obedience or death. Escaping or defecting will lead to punishment to you or those around you.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sophie%27s%20choice
06/21/2018 03:20 PMPosted by Tienzaneven the lore which shows her descent into obsessions with loyalty are all without merit.
In this thread, I'm looking for that lore. Please tell me where to find it--that's the purpose of the discussion.
Years of documented betrayals from Varimathras, Putress, Lord Godfrey and Koltira have done nothing to skew her opinions to more extreme views?
The betrayals are documented. I'm looking for documentation of Sylvanas's reaction. What has been said about how she felt/what she did in response to these betrayals? Where and when was it said?
The new book, Before the Storm is a pretty severe character assassination of Sylvanas. She's loyalty obsessed, killing any Forsaken who are even merely 95% loyal to her.06/21/2018 03:24 PMPosted by Pellex06/21/2018 03:20 PMPosted by Tienzaneven the lore which shows her descent into obsessions with loyalty are all without merit.
In this thread, I'm looking for that lore. Please tell me where to find it--that's the purpose of the discussion.
Before the Storm is every Sylvanas hater's greatest wet dream. Just assume anything bad that every been said about Sylvanas by anyone on this forum ever was made canon in that book.
My biggest issue is that in her ressurection, she didnt want war with the alliance, but now she does.