Lately, but especially since we started seeing bits of Before the Storm, I've felt that Sylvanas's characterization has been drifting from what I used to think it was. But I keep saying people saying that she's no different from how she has always been portrayed. I admit I have never leveled a Forsaken, and I haven't visited the Forsaken leveling zones much in several years. So I'd like to get the perspective of people who are deeper into that particular set of lore and find out exactly when and where some of these traits first appeared.
Just a couple of requests for the points below:
1. This isn't a thread about whether Sylvanas is a good person/elf/being. I'd like to avoid getting distracted by that question. This is about consistency of specific views and personality traits. In fact ...
2. Let's avoid using the word "evil." It's too vague, and anyway, there are many different flavors of evil. She can stay evil and still switch flavors.
3. Forsaken NPCs saying "Dark Lady watch over you" or "Death to the living" (etc.) isn't proof of any of these things. Those quotes say more about the NPCs than about Sylvanas herself.
So with that out of the way, here's the list of questions. I'd like to know when Sylvanas started to exhibit the following traits--whether in quest text, a cutscene, a novel, or wherever. To be clear, I'm not looking for speculation as to what she was thinking or how she was feeling at various points in the story; I'm looking for linkable, quotable evidence that shows the change in her thoughts and views.
1. When did she become prone to fits of violent rage? What examples have we seen from her before now?
2. When did she start acting paranoid? What were her paranoid actions?
3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it? (EDIT: Bolded because a lot of people are answering the question "When did she start believing undeath was better than death?"--and that one is pretty clear. Also, I want to know what evidence we have of her changing opinions, not just a guess at how her mind was working at certain times.)
4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
5. Another tricky one, but again, let's try: when did she start demanding blind obedience? Given that the Forsaken starting zone explicitly shows the newly raised having a choice as to whether to join the Forsaken or not, it clearly wasn't in the game from day one, so it must have started somewhere. Has she punished anyone for disagreeing with her before?
2 Likes
I will attempt some. I am not a lore encyclopedia like some - I know it conversationally.
1. When she sees Arthas dead and Bolvar as the new Lich King, she pounds on the Frozen Throne. Like a violent beating of fists and feet. Sort of like an angry young dude punching a brick wall.
Also, she has clenched her fists and teeth in rage to the point of drawing blood.
2. Paranoid? She doesn't seem unreasonably paranoid to me. That is in one's view.
3. I dont know the answer to that or if it is even true. Making the most of Undeath is different than extolling it. Forcing those who oppose her into Undeath to serve her is different than extolling it. I dont know if she thinks the physical state of Undeath IS better than life.
She talked about saving Horde lives for the future. She understands "life" in the abstract has value.
She does not seem to object to Human life - only if it opposes her and the Horde. I have yet to see her goal being stated as killing every human every where.
4. See 3
5. This seems to be brand new. I only see it mentioned in BtS. Seems to qualify as a retcon imo.
Sylvanas was the least autocratic and micro managing Horde leader. She respected Lordaeron's history and it's people, to a degree. Now she has been burning books?
I don't even...
She did punish Koltira in Cata for not being ruthless enough against Thassarian. She locks him up for "re-education" until the DKs free him in Legion.
So she has had a little Orwell in her. Koltira reminds me of Winston now.
1. When she sees Arthas dead and Bolvar as the new Lich King, she pounds on the Frozen Throne. Like a violent beating of fists and feet. Sort of like an angry young dude punching a brick wall.
Also, she has clenched her fists and teeth in rage to the point of drawing blood.
2. Paranoid? She doesn't seem unreasonably paranoid to me. That is in one's view.
3. I dont know the answer to that or if it is even true. Making the most of Undeath is different than extolling it. Forcing those who oppose her into Undeath to serve her is different than extolling it. I dont know if she thinks the physical state of Undeath IS better than life.
She talked about saving Horde lives for the future. She understands "life" in the abstract has value.
She does not seem to object to Human life - only if it opposes her and the Horde. I have yet to see her goal being stated as killing every human every where.
4. See 3
5. This seems to be brand new. I only see it mentioned in BtS. Seems to qualify as a retcon imo.
Sylvanas was the least autocratic and micro managing Horde leader. She respected Lordaeron's history and it's people, to a degree. Now she has been burning books?
I don't even...
She did punish Koltira in Cata for not being ruthless enough against Thassarian. She locks him up for "re-education" until the DKs free him in Legion.
So she has had a little Orwell in her. Koltira reminds me of Winston now.
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Thanks for your response, Cursewords!
Could you tell me where these incidents are shown? Novels, short stories, cutscenes, quests?
06/13/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Cursewords1. When she sees Arthas dead and Bolvar as the new Lich King, she pounds on the Frozen Throne. Like a violent beating of fists and feet. Sort of like an angry young dude punching a brick wall.
Also, she has clenched her fists and teeth in rage to the point of drawing blood.
Could you tell me where these incidents are shown? Novels, short stories, cutscenes, quests?
1. Golden had Sylvanas have emotional rage freakouts in her previous book War Crimes. So it's a "Golden Sylvanas" trait.
2. Again, Golden wrote her as an emotional teen girl full of doubt and fear in War Crimes.
3. At the end of Wrath, Blizz had to vastly change (wreck) her character for gameplay reasons since her stated life plan was "The Forsaken are going to get revenge on Arthas, and then kill ourselves".
4. The expansion where they turned her into an evil moron is the first time she's stated her plans to kill all the living and make the world her slave. This expansion!
5. The book that came out this week is the first time they hard changed it from "don't betray us and you can do whatever you want" to "UC is LITERALLY totalitarian Nasi Germany".
2. Again, Golden wrote her as an emotional teen girl full of doubt and fear in War Crimes.
3. At the end of Wrath, Blizz had to vastly change (wreck) her character for gameplay reasons since her stated life plan was "The Forsaken are going to get revenge on Arthas, and then kill ourselves".
4. The expansion where they turned her into an evil moron is the first time she's stated her plans to kill all the living and make the world her slave. This expansion!
5. The book that came out this week is the first time they hard changed it from "don't betray us and you can do whatever you want" to "UC is LITERALLY totalitarian Nasi Germany".
06/13/2018 07:57 AMPosted by PellexThanks for your response, Cursewords!06/13/2018 07:49 AMPosted by Cursewords1. When she sees Arthas dead and Bolvar as the new Lich King, she pounds on the Frozen Throne. Like a violent beating of fists and feet. Sort of like an angry young dude punching a brick wall.
Also, she has clenched her fists and teeth in rage to the point of drawing blood.
Could you tell me where these incidents are shown? Novels, short stories, cutscenes, quests?
I believe the reference is to:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/story/short-story/leader-story/sylvanas-windrunner
First page.
06/13/2018 07:57 AMPosted by Threeslotbag3. At the end of Wrath, Blizz had to vastly change (wreck) her character for gameplay reasons since her stated life plan was "The Forsaken are going to get revenge on Arthas, and then kill ourselves".
I get that, but I don't remember her saying anything positive about the state of undeath at that time. When did she start talking/having internal monologues about undeath as an advantage, or about freeing people from the pains of life?
06/13/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Pellex06/13/2018 07:57 AMPosted by Threeslotbag3. At the end of Wrath, Blizz had to vastly change (wreck) her character for gameplay reasons since her stated life plan was "The Forsaken are going to get revenge on Arthas, and then kill ourselves".
I get that, but I don't remember her saying anything positive about the state of undeath at that time. When did she start talking/having internal monologues about undeath as an advantage, or about freeing people from the pains of life?
That's another new gem from Golden. She thought she was doing Forsaken players a favor? Idk........
06/13/2018 08:06 AMPosted by JackspratThat's another new gem from Golden. She thought she was doing Forsaken players a favor? Idk........
I remember her click quotes from vanilla when she would always say, "there's so much joy in this curse."
...no wait, that's not right.
In Vanilla she bounced up and down like a bunny every 15 seconds. So it can't have been all that bad!06/13/2018 08:08 AMPosted by Éamon06/13/2018 08:06 AMPosted by JackspratThat's another new gem from Golden. She thought she was doing Forsaken players a favor? Idk........
I remember her click quotes from vanilla when she would always say, "there's so much joy in this curse."
...no wait, that's not right.
http://orig03.deviantart.net/b632/f/2007/279/7/a/altzheimers___8_of_52_by_naon.jpg
Could you tell me where these incidents are shown? Novels, short stories, cutscenes, quests?
I believe the reference is to:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/story/short-story/leader-story/sylvanas-windrunner
First page.
Thanks!
That's a super-emotional moment for her, though--the culmination of years and years of single-minded working toward revenge. Is there anything in between that and War Crimes? Also, have we seen her fly into a rage outside of Golden's novels (apart from the short story already mentioned)?
OK, to answer these questions in some kind of order:
Ever since she was raised as a Banshee; go back over her WC3 Forsaken/anti-Scourge undead lines, and you can see the fury. Although I grant she used to let it out to play far less. That part's changed; she had her rage under more control in the past. If I had to guess, I'd imagine that Vereesa's decision to change her mind about being recruited into the Forsaken - not even in person, but via letter - and its attendant overtone of familial rejection and betrayal (Vereesa blabbed to Anduin about their plan to murder Garrosh, allowing Anduin to save his life)....may have had something to do with this. Certainly, her fury and rage in War Crimes after reading that letter were epic.
When Quel'thalas' defense was betrayed by Dar'khan Drathir, her soldiers were murdered due to Drathir's espionage, her desperate pleas to Silvermoon for reinforcements went unanswered (Arthas murdered the messengers, but she didn't know that at the time - she thought she'd been hung out to dry as a diversion) and even the peace of the afterlife was stolen from her.
She got a whole conga line of backstabbing and trauma, distilled down into one brutal, weeks-long campaign and ending with her painful, torturous death and psychic enslavement to the embodiment of unlife; how are you surprised that it left her a bitter, hollowed-out and paranoid shell of the elven woman she once was?
After the end of Arthas, she committed suicide and got to experience what her afterlife would be. It wasn't nice, and only the sacrifice of Annhylde, one of the nine Val'kyr who approached her to forge a new allegiance, allowed her to escape that fate. Since then, she's had one motivation, and one only: Never go back there again.
Sometime before Vanilla. Seriously, check out pre-Cata Undercity. Gruesome experiments on a New Plague (which we got to see in action at the Wrathgate), vivisection of living captives, mass forcible conversions of prisoners into mindless ghouls...the whole nine yards, really. And she signaled that take-no-compromises stance wayyyyy back in WC3, when she vowed that her new Forsaken would find their own path in the world..."and slaughter anyone who gets in our way!".
And since Cataclysm....whew. Who can forget the lovely makeover she did of Southshore, or her attempted redecoration (and murder of all of the citizens of, down to the last child) of Gilneas City, or her murder and forcible resurrection of Galen Trollbane (not that the little !@# didn't deserve it, mind you...), or her mass-raising and mind control of dead Alliance soldiers at Andorhal, or the years of pure, unalloyed torture she visited upon Koltira Deathweaver for daring to have a friend she disapproved of...
As Garrosh once (sarcastically) put it: What's the difference between her and the Scourge? And Sylvanas' reply was simple. " Isn't it obvious, Warchief? I serve the Horde."
...And we all know she doesn't serve the Horde, not when the chips are down.
Putress chose to release the New Blight at the Wrathgate, against Sylvanas' wishes - and after launching a coup d'etat to overthrow her rule in the Undercity. But he developed it, for years, with her full knowledge and approval the whole time...and she was not slow to deploy it against her foes when the time came.
I believe the turning point was the Battle for the Undercity. Putress' and Varimathras' betrayal of her shook her confidence to its very foundations. And at the foundation of her unease was the simple reality: She was weak. She was dependent upon her chief underlings to manage her dominions...and that necessarily left her vulnerable to their disloyalty. One takeaway for her was that she must never again become so dependent upon a handful of individuals, that any one of them turning their coat can seriously harm her.
Now add to this her epiphany at Icecrown Citadel; there's no beatific afterlife waiting for her, no reunion with her dead family and friends, just the eternity of torment that she's already gotten a sample of. So she's suddenly got a lot more motivation to remain the Queen $%^-* of Azeroth (Apologies to Sarah Kerrigan :P), and a lot less trust in her lackeys and underlings.
So she overcompensates. She micromanages, refusing to delegate strategic operations lest her personal freedom to act be curtailed. She plays favour-games with her underlings, keeping them too much at each others' throats to even think of ganging up on her. She plays up the ruthless, "With us or agin' us!" angle, to ensure that those on her side, stay on her side.
Ironically, it's one of the most humanizing aspects I've ever seen about her character - and I was a WC3 player back in the day. She was dealt an awful hand, then given a colossal backstab by two highly-trusted subordinates...accordingly, she'll never let anyone else get into a position to repeat Vari/Putress' tricks. It's a very human, if very unhelpful, psychological response to being betrayed.
1. When did she become prone to fits of violent rage? What examples have we seen from her before now?
Ever since she was raised as a Banshee; go back over her WC3 Forsaken/anti-Scourge undead lines, and you can see the fury. Although I grant she used to let it out to play far less. That part's changed; she had her rage under more control in the past. If I had to guess, I'd imagine that Vereesa's decision to change her mind about being recruited into the Forsaken - not even in person, but via letter - and its attendant overtone of familial rejection and betrayal (Vereesa blabbed to Anduin about their plan to murder Garrosh, allowing Anduin to save his life)....may have had something to do with this. Certainly, her fury and rage in War Crimes after reading that letter were epic.
2. When did she become paranoid?
When Quel'thalas' defense was betrayed by Dar'khan Drathir, her soldiers were murdered due to Drathir's espionage, her desperate pleas to Silvermoon for reinforcements went unanswered (Arthas murdered the messengers, but she didn't know that at the time - she thought she'd been hung out to dry as a diversion) and even the peace of the afterlife was stolen from her.
She got a whole conga line of backstabbing and trauma, distilled down into one brutal, weeks-long campaign and ending with her painful, torturous death and psychic enslavement to the embodiment of unlife; how are you surprised that it left her a bitter, hollowed-out and paranoid shell of the elven woman she once was?
3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it?
After the end of Arthas, she committed suicide and got to experience what her afterlife would be. It wasn't nice, and only the sacrifice of Annhylde, one of the nine Val'kyr who approached her to forge a new allegiance, allowed her to escape that fate. Since then, she's had one motivation, and one only: Never go back there again.
4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
Sometime before Vanilla. Seriously, check out pre-Cata Undercity. Gruesome experiments on a New Plague (which we got to see in action at the Wrathgate), vivisection of living captives, mass forcible conversions of prisoners into mindless ghouls...the whole nine yards, really. And she signaled that take-no-compromises stance wayyyyy back in WC3, when she vowed that her new Forsaken would find their own path in the world..."and slaughter anyone who gets in our way!".
And since Cataclysm....whew. Who can forget the lovely makeover she did of Southshore, or her attempted redecoration (and murder of all of the citizens of, down to the last child) of Gilneas City, or her murder and forcible resurrection of Galen Trollbane (not that the little !@# didn't deserve it, mind you...), or her mass-raising and mind control of dead Alliance soldiers at Andorhal, or the years of pure, unalloyed torture she visited upon Koltira Deathweaver for daring to have a friend she disapproved of...
As Garrosh once (sarcastically) put it: What's the difference between her and the Scourge? And Sylvanas' reply was simple. " Isn't it obvious, Warchief? I serve the Horde."
...And we all know she doesn't serve the Horde, not when the chips are down.
Putress chose to release the New Blight at the Wrathgate, against Sylvanas' wishes - and after launching a coup d'etat to overthrow her rule in the Undercity. But he developed it, for years, with her full knowledge and approval the whole time...and she was not slow to deploy it against her foes when the time came.
5. Another tricky one, but again, let's try: when did she start demanding blind obedience? Given that the Forsaken starting zone explicitly shows the newly raised having a choice as to whether to join the Forsaken or not, it clearly wasn't in the game from day one, so it must have started somewhere. Has she punished anyone for disagreeing with her before?
I believe the turning point was the Battle for the Undercity. Putress' and Varimathras' betrayal of her shook her confidence to its very foundations. And at the foundation of her unease was the simple reality: She was weak. She was dependent upon her chief underlings to manage her dominions...and that necessarily left her vulnerable to their disloyalty. One takeaway for her was that she must never again become so dependent upon a handful of individuals, that any one of them turning their coat can seriously harm her.
Now add to this her epiphany at Icecrown Citadel; there's no beatific afterlife waiting for her, no reunion with her dead family and friends, just the eternity of torment that she's already gotten a sample of. So she's suddenly got a lot more motivation to remain the Queen $%^-* of Azeroth (Apologies to Sarah Kerrigan :P), and a lot less trust in her lackeys and underlings.
So she overcompensates. She micromanages, refusing to delegate strategic operations lest her personal freedom to act be curtailed. She plays favour-games with her underlings, keeping them too much at each others' throats to even think of ganging up on her. She plays up the ruthless, "With us or agin' us!" angle, to ensure that those on her side, stay on her side.
Ironically, it's one of the most humanizing aspects I've ever seen about her character - and I was a WC3 player back in the day. She was dealt an awful hand, then given a colossal backstab by two highly-trusted subordinates...accordingly, she'll never let anyone else get into a position to repeat Vari/Putress' tricks. It's a very human, if very unhelpful, psychological response to being betrayed.
1 Like
06/13/2018 08:22 AMPosted by ThreeslotbagIn Vanilla she bounced up and down like a bunny every 15 seconds. So it can't have been all that bad!06/13/2018 08:08 AMPosted by Éamon...
I remember her click quotes from vanilla when she would always say, "there's so much joy in this curse."
...no wait, that's not right.
http://orig03.deviantart.net/b632/f/2007/279/7/a/altzheimers___8_of_52_by_naon.jpg
That was b/c her model was basically a recoloured Night Elf female model - so it got the FNElf's idles...such as bouncing up and down occasionally.
1. When did she become prone to fits of violent rage? What examples have we seen from her before now?
Somehow, this question isn’t as easy as I originally thought. As a Banshee, it makes sense because fits of violent rage is kind of their thing. However, have we ever seen Sylvanas have a fit of violent rage? There are a few examples, but they were always under fairly reasonable conditions. I don’t think this is a trait she really has, especially for a Banshee.
2. When did she become paranoid?
Oh, she’s always been paranoid. I mean, wouldn’t you be? Literally the entire world hates her. Even before she had done anything, everyone HATED her. I am not bringing up the moral argument here, I am not saying she is good or evil, she was hated by the rest of the world in its entirety before she had done anything to deserve it. She was victim blamed, for sure.
3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it?
I don’t think she does, really. She says she does, but I do not think it is because her views of undeath has changed, but rather her views on life has. Like I said in my answer to number two, she was victim blamed. The living hated her for what she was even before she started doing horrible things. The living have been completely lack in sympathy or care for the plight of her and the forsaken, and from that, she learned to hate them. Her moral position has been justified in her mind due to the complete apathy and hatred from the living.
4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
See answer to Number three.
5. Another tricky one, but again, let's try: when did she start demanding blind obedience? Given that the Forsaken starting zone explicitly shows the newly raised having a choice as to whether to join the Forsaken or not, it clearly wasn't in the game from day one, so it must have started somewhere. Has she punished anyone for disagreeing with her before?
This is new, as far as I know. Though, can we say the forsaken are given a choice? Imagine waking up as a shambling corpse, your soul now eternally damned because of it, and there is some @$$ hat standing there: “Hey, you want to help us out? No pressure.”
…. No… No I don’t want to help you out, but what choice to I have now? If I die, I am subject to eternal suffering. If I head out on my own, I will be hunted down and killed by the living. What choice do I really have, now that you have robbed me of my eternal rest?
So, maybe she has always expected blind obedience? We just haven’t seen it to its full extent.
Somehow, this question isn’t as easy as I originally thought. As a Banshee, it makes sense because fits of violent rage is kind of their thing. However, have we ever seen Sylvanas have a fit of violent rage? There are a few examples, but they were always under fairly reasonable conditions. I don’t think this is a trait she really has, especially for a Banshee.
2. When did she become paranoid?
Oh, she’s always been paranoid. I mean, wouldn’t you be? Literally the entire world hates her. Even before she had done anything, everyone HATED her. I am not bringing up the moral argument here, I am not saying she is good or evil, she was hated by the rest of the world in its entirety before she had done anything to deserve it. She was victim blamed, for sure.
3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it?
I don’t think she does, really. She says she does, but I do not think it is because her views of undeath has changed, but rather her views on life has. Like I said in my answer to number two, she was victim blamed. The living hated her for what she was even before she started doing horrible things. The living have been completely lack in sympathy or care for the plight of her and the forsaken, and from that, she learned to hate them. Her moral position has been justified in her mind due to the complete apathy and hatred from the living.
4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
See answer to Number three.
5. Another tricky one, but again, let's try: when did she start demanding blind obedience? Given that the Forsaken starting zone explicitly shows the newly raised having a choice as to whether to join the Forsaken or not, it clearly wasn't in the game from day one, so it must have started somewhere. Has she punished anyone for disagreeing with her before?
This is new, as far as I know. Though, can we say the forsaken are given a choice? Imagine waking up as a shambling corpse, your soul now eternally damned because of it, and there is some @$$ hat standing there: “Hey, you want to help us out? No pressure.”
…. No… No I don’t want to help you out, but what choice to I have now? If I die, I am subject to eternal suffering. If I head out on my own, I will be hunted down and killed by the living. What choice do I really have, now that you have robbed me of my eternal rest?
So, maybe she has always expected blind obedience? We just haven’t seen it to its full extent.
1. When did she become prone to fits of violent rage? What examples have we seen from her before now?
2. When did she become paranoid?
3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it?
4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
1. Sylvanas was always vengeful. Look back to Warcraft 3. She was prone to rage and when she had Arthas cornered she wanted to make him suffer before he died. She also killed random bears/animals in Silverpine in Warcrimes after Vareesa screwed her over. So This isn't new to her character regardless who's writing her.
2. I would say when she threw herself off of Icecrown and landed on those saronite spikes. Seeing what awaited her terrified her so much that her desire for revenge was made secondary to her desire for eternal life. This caused her to be suspicious since Arthas was replaced by Bolvar and the Lich King remained. This was done without her knowledge or consent. Sylvanas then was murdered by our favorite undead Gilnean Godfrey. That changed her opinion on whether to trust her underlings. Reasonably so.... Also again not a variation of Sylvanas by Golden. This was in Cataclysm. There isn't a false narrative this is who she has become.
3. End of Wrath and the onset of the Cataclysm. The whole oblivion and abyss that awaited her changed her desires and ideals on the undeath subject. I wish they removed that line that hearkens to Warcraft 3, "What are we if not slaves to this torment? What joy is there in this curse?"
4. When she died and was reborn by the Valkyr her perspective changed and began to embrace undeath.
5. Blame Godfrey and in Vanilla forsaken defectors. Those betrayals were enough to push her over the edge and let's not forget the first battle for Undercity when Varimathras ousted her.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sylvanas_Windrunner#cite_note-12
Oh, she’s always been paranoid.She was always mistrusting. But outside of BtS, I'm genuinely struggling to think of an instance where she displayed legitimate paranoia. Being cautious isn't the same as being paranoid.
06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex
1. When did she become prone to fits of violent rage? What examples have we seen from her before now?
Basically when Golden writes her. Otherwise, she normally seems very in control - go watch the cinematic where Genn ambushes her and foils her big plan. Does she react like someone prone to fits of violent rage? Quite the opposite.
2. When did she start acting paranoid? What were her paranoid actions?
It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you! But actually...I don't see her as acting particularly paranoid. Is there a specific incident you are thinking of?
I mean, she assumes that the Alliance want to wipe out the Forsaken...but she has some pretty good evidence for that. They murdered the ambassadors she sent, many of them refer to the Forsaken as "abominations", and there have been unrelenting hostilities. So I wouldn't call that paranoid.
3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it?
What is your evidence for this? It is true that her attitude towards undeath seems to have shifted from seeing it as a curse to seeing it as having value (certainly compared to what she saw as the afterlife). But I don't think she's ever stated that she sees it as better than life.
4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
When is that stated as her goal? I don't think that is her goal.
5. Another tricky one, but again, let's try: when did she start demanding blind obedience? Given that the Forsaken starting zone explicitly shows the newly raised having a choice as to whether to join the Forsaken or not, it clearly wasn't in the game from day one, so it must have started somewhere. Has she punished anyone for disagreeing with her before?
I'm not sure that she does, though Golden's new representation of Undercity as a totalitarian regime gives me pause. So maybe that's a change that is happening.
To answer OP:
1) A lot of people are misunderstanding what OP is asking with this one. Saying "she was always rageful" does not answer his question. He's asking for violent fits of rage.
So to answer your question, OP, we've only seen anything remotely similar to that on two occasions. One, there was a similar scene in War Crimes (also a Golden imagining...). Two, when we brought her necklace back to her in that one questline. She was not violent, but she did snap at us a little. So even this example is shaky. There was also a time in Silverpine after a group of Forsaken had been ambushed and killed by Ivar. She exclaimed they'd get vengeance for it. Also a shaky example.
But other than that, I can't think of a time with her snapping. Golden is the only one who's shown her snapping violently, first in War Crimes then in BtS.
But even when she was ambushing Arthas in WC3, her anger was extremely calm, collected, and focused. It was not a snap action, but a calculated move.
2) Like I said in my above comment, I'm struggling to think of a time when she's displayed paranoia. She's always been guarded and played things close to the chest. And while it may make sense given all the coups and betrayals she's survived for her to be paranoid, we've literally never seen it before this book. I'm trying to think of a time, yet drawing a blank.
3) It's not exactly clear when she started believing undeath was better than life, since this is a view she only recently explicitly stated. However, she did have default text in Silverpine reading "In undeath, we are reborn." So it's safe to say that she at least started viewing undeath in a positive light back in Cata.
4) We don't know. She's never said such a thing before, or expressed a desire to attempt it. Back in vanilla, there was one apothecary who expressed a desire to wipe out the living, and this view is often attributed to Sylvanas. However, that apothecary also worked for Varimathras, and we never heard Sylvanas affirm that view.
5) This is new lore in BtS. Sylvanas has always demanded loyalty to herself and the Forsaken, but only to those who chose to join the Forsaken, and never before to such extremes. And as stated in Traveller 2, if you want to leave the Forsaken then all you need to do is politely ask. There was also a captain in Silverpine who, after witnessing the death of his unit, retired from military service. But the level of control we see in BtS within the Forsaken's daily lives is unprecedented. The Forsaken have always been a highly unified militaristic entity, but never before were their personal freedoms so restricted. For instance, there is a family of Forsaken at Dreadwake's Landing who have continued to run the family business they had in life into their undeath as well.
Bottom line, Golden doesn't really know Forsaken lore or aesthetic and is making it up as she goes.
1) A lot of people are misunderstanding what OP is asking with this one. Saying "she was always rageful" does not answer his question. He's asking for violent fits of rage.
So to answer your question, OP, we've only seen anything remotely similar to that on two occasions. One, there was a similar scene in War Crimes (also a Golden imagining...). Two, when we brought her necklace back to her in that one questline. She was not violent, but she did snap at us a little. So even this example is shaky. There was also a time in Silverpine after a group of Forsaken had been ambushed and killed by Ivar. She exclaimed they'd get vengeance for it. Also a shaky example.
But other than that, I can't think of a time with her snapping. Golden is the only one who's shown her snapping violently, first in War Crimes then in BtS.
But even when she was ambushing Arthas in WC3, her anger was extremely calm, collected, and focused. It was not a snap action, but a calculated move.
2) Like I said in my above comment, I'm struggling to think of a time when she's displayed paranoia. She's always been guarded and played things close to the chest. And while it may make sense given all the coups and betrayals she's survived for her to be paranoid, we've literally never seen it before this book. I'm trying to think of a time, yet drawing a blank.
3) It's not exactly clear when she started believing undeath was better than life, since this is a view she only recently explicitly stated. However, she did have default text in Silverpine reading "In undeath, we are reborn." So it's safe to say that she at least started viewing undeath in a positive light back in Cata.
4) We don't know. She's never said such a thing before, or expressed a desire to attempt it. Back in vanilla, there was one apothecary who expressed a desire to wipe out the living, and this view is often attributed to Sylvanas. However, that apothecary also worked for Varimathras, and we never heard Sylvanas affirm that view.
5) This is new lore in BtS. Sylvanas has always demanded loyalty to herself and the Forsaken, but only to those who chose to join the Forsaken, and never before to such extremes. And as stated in Traveller 2, if you want to leave the Forsaken then all you need to do is politely ask. There was also a captain in Silverpine who, after witnessing the death of his unit, retired from military service. But the level of control we see in BtS within the Forsaken's daily lives is unprecedented. The Forsaken have always been a highly unified militaristic entity, but never before were their personal freedoms so restricted. For instance, there is a family of Forsaken at Dreadwake's Landing who have continued to run the family business they had in life into their undeath as well.
Bottom line, Golden doesn't really know Forsaken lore or aesthetic and is making it up as she goes.
I'll toss my hat in the ring. Long post is long.
I believe Warcrimes is the most recent she truly had a "fit of violent rage". Sylvanas has always been an angry character. She states multiple times that Undead did little to quell he raging furnace that was her hate. However, it was more of a cold hate. Her rage was calculated and precise.
In Warcrimes, however, her offer for Vareesa to join her in Undercity are ultimately rebuffed. And she has an extreme fit of violent rage in Tirisfal over it. I believe she ends up ripping a Darkhound's head off and claims never to let herself become that vulnerable again.
As others pointed out, these episodes typically only happen when Golden is writing her. As we don't see much of this at all in game. Hell, even when Genn smashed her lantern and ruined her plan to enslave Eyir, all she did was squeeze her bow. Her anger (and it must have been intense) was controlled.
Sylvanas is hardly the only character to suffer this sort of dual characterization. It's happened before, with Golden and possibly other writers. They write characters one way that isn't mirrored in-game in the slightest.
I believe she's always been "paranoid". But paranoid may be the wrong word to use. She's cautious, doesn't trust people, and is a control freak. And she's always been like that since she was raised. We just never saw much of it because, up until BtS, the Forsaken have largely been very united in their loyalty to Sylvanas, aside from a few outliers.
But it's always been there. I imagine Sylvanas is sort of like Batman, in that she has probably thought up a way to deal with each person she's met. I wouldn't be surprised if she has a file on Anduin, Genn, Saurfang, and Baine.
This is something else that is fairly recent. Sylvanas has, essentially, gone through three different phases concerning her opinion of Undeath.
First, she abhorred it. "What joy is there in bearing this curse?" and all that jazz. At this stage, Life > Death > Undeath. Undeath is the lowest tier. She pressed on solely for the sake of vengeance.
Then, she learned what awaited her after death. So now, Life\Undeath > Death.
Undeath has moved up a rank. It's better to be Undead than Dead.
And finally, in the most recent depictions, Sylvanas has shown a belief that Undeath frees you from the vulnerabilities of life. Now Undeath > Life/Death.
She believes clinging on to their past lives makes her people vulnerable, just as she was back in Warcrimes. And that they need to embrace what they are to move forward. As shown in the comic: Three Sisters, this is something Sylvanas is actively struggling with.
Probably around Cataclysm. That's when she began raising Humans. And BtS seems to mention that her plans for Stormwind have been around for quite some time. She may have played around with the idea before even that. But it's definitely been floating around in her head for a while.
This is another one that crept up very recently, specifically in BtS. It makes sense for her to expect loyalty from her people. But the idea that they must be 100% fanatically loyal is new, and doesn't make too much sense with the pre-established Lore.
Previously, Forsaken were actually free to leave if they wished. They simply had to ask Sylvanas, and she'd consider it. It may not have been a fair system, but it was in place. There are a handful of Undead that we know of who actively left the Forsaken for different pastures.
06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex1. When did she become prone to fits of violent rage? What examples have we seen from her before now?
I believe Warcrimes is the most recent she truly had a "fit of violent rage". Sylvanas has always been an angry character. She states multiple times that Undead did little to quell he raging furnace that was her hate. However, it was more of a cold hate. Her rage was calculated and precise.
In Warcrimes, however, her offer for Vareesa to join her in Undercity are ultimately rebuffed. And she has an extreme fit of violent rage in Tirisfal over it. I believe she ends up ripping a Darkhound's head off and claims never to let herself become that vulnerable again.
As others pointed out, these episodes typically only happen when Golden is writing her. As we don't see much of this at all in game. Hell, even when Genn smashed her lantern and ruined her plan to enslave Eyir, all she did was squeeze her bow. Her anger (and it must have been intense) was controlled.
Sylvanas is hardly the only character to suffer this sort of dual characterization. It's happened before, with Golden and possibly other writers. They write characters one way that isn't mirrored in-game in the slightest.
06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex2. When did she start acting paranoid? What were her paranoid actions?
I believe she's always been "paranoid". But paranoid may be the wrong word to use. She's cautious, doesn't trust people, and is a control freak. And she's always been like that since she was raised. We just never saw much of it because, up until BtS, the Forsaken have largely been very united in their loyalty to Sylvanas, aside from a few outliers.
But it's always been there. I imagine Sylvanas is sort of like Batman, in that she has probably thought up a way to deal with each person she's met. I wouldn't be surprised if she has a file on Anduin, Genn, Saurfang, and Baine.
06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it?
This is something else that is fairly recent. Sylvanas has, essentially, gone through three different phases concerning her opinion of Undeath.
First, she abhorred it. "What joy is there in bearing this curse?" and all that jazz. At this stage, Life > Death > Undeath. Undeath is the lowest tier. She pressed on solely for the sake of vengeance.
Then, she learned what awaited her after death. So now, Life\Undeath > Death.
Undeath has moved up a rank. It's better to be Undead than Dead.
And finally, in the most recent depictions, Sylvanas has shown a belief that Undeath frees you from the vulnerabilities of life. Now Undeath > Life/Death.
She believes clinging on to their past lives makes her people vulnerable, just as she was back in Warcrimes. And that they need to embrace what they are to move forward. As shown in the comic: Three Sisters, this is something Sylvanas is actively struggling with.
06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?
Probably around Cataclysm. That's when she began raising Humans. And BtS seems to mention that her plans for Stormwind have been around for quite some time. She may have played around with the idea before even that. But it's definitely been floating around in her head for a while.
06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex5. Another tricky one, but again, let's try: when did she start demanding blind obedience? Given that the Forsaken starting zone explicitly shows the newly raised having a choice as to whether to join the Forsaken or not, it clearly wasn't in the game from day one, so it must have started somewhere. Has she punished anyone for disagreeing with her before?
This is another one that crept up very recently, specifically in BtS. It makes sense for her to expect loyalty from her people. But the idea that they must be 100% fanatically loyal is new, and doesn't make too much sense with the pre-established Lore.
Previously, Forsaken were actually free to leave if they wished. They simply had to ask Sylvanas, and she'd consider it. It may not have been a fair system, but it was in place. There are a handful of Undead that we know of who actively left the Forsaken for different pastures.
Apparently Golden has confused this as well, since there seems to be little difference between BFA Horde's actions and those of Burning Legion traitors.06/13/2018 10:15 AMPosted by SamariyuBack in vanilla, there was one apothecary who expressed a desire to wipe out the living, and this view is often attributed to Sylvanas. However, that apothecary also worked for Varimathras, and we never heard Sylvanas affirm that view.
Umm she kills the living and raises them as Undead to solve the issue of procreation.06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it?
Gilneas and the Stormheim storyline trying to get new Vrykul come to mind, there's probably other examples.
She clearly values Undead being fruitful and "multiplying" rather than the living doing so.
She isn't just looking after her "flock", she's always trying to make more. And if being undead is as awful as she has claimed she wouldn't be pushing it on anyone except for as a bid for more power.
Her motivations are selfish.